[samtheham212]

Hello can I join please if I can how do I join


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[HeMan]

Leaderboard update for the Champs United C.C. Handicap Hustle. Only a couple days left to play.

1. SteeleReign69 (-2)
2. DoubtfulObelisk (+2)
2. Chief Banks (+2)
4. HeMan1202 (+4)
5. HappyToDie (+7)
5. Nemecyst (+7)
7. CongoGB (+8)
7. Peanut12086 (+8)
9. I tasteURtears (+11)
10. ED68BOGUS (+12)
11. P1 SEL (+23)
11. Euronacho (+23)
13. BestwoodRodie (+26)
14. T WITT33 (+28)
15. ItsSixCoronas (+31)
16. rascal607 (+34)

Hopefully we see some more scores posted. Good job everyone.

[steelereign]

Leaderboard update for the Champs United C.C. Handicap Hustle. Only a couple days left to play.

1. SteeleReign69 (-2)
2. DoubtfulObelisk (+2)
2. Chief Banks (+2)
4. HeMan1202 (+4)
5. HappyToDie (+7)
5. Nemecyst (+7)
7. CongoGB (+8)
7. Peanut12086 (+8)
9. I tasteURtears (+11)
10. ED68BOGUS (+12)
11. P1 SEL (+23)
11. Euronacho (+23)
13. BestwoodRodie (+26)
14. T WITT33 (+28)
15. ItsSixCoronas (+31)
16. rascal607 (+34)

Hopefully we see some more scores posted. Good job everyone.

Any game mode that allows me to win by 4 strokes over DoubtfulObelisk is broken.  Happy to be leading for the moment, but DB has to shoot impossible scores to compete.  Just doesn't feel right.

[ChiefBanks]

Handicapped or not, very solid rounds . Not an easy course. The playoff round will be on Thursday 5 pm PST. If this time does not work for the top 3 players, Please let me know ASAP We can always move it to Saturday 5 pm PST before our Social Rounds. I encourage members to join that playoff round to watch (in free roam) and chat while the top 3 play. Should be fun to see from a topside view.

[HeMan]

Leaderboard update for the Champs United C.C. Handicap Hustle. Only a couple days left to play.

1. SteeleReign69 (-2)
2. DoubtfulObelisk (+2)
2. Chief Banks (+2)
4. HeMan1202 (+4)
5. HappyToDie (+7)
5. Nemecyst (+7)
7. CongoGB (+8)
7. Peanut12086 (+8)
9. I tasteURtears (+11)
10. ED68BOGUS (+12)
11. P1 SEL (+23)
11. Euronacho (+23)
13. BestwoodRodie (+26)
14. T WITT33 (+28)
15. ItsSixCoronas (+31)
16. rascal607 (+34)

Hopefully we see some more scores posted. Good job everyone.

Any game mode that allows me to win by 4 strokes over DoubtfulObelisk is broken.  Happy to be leading for the moment, but DB has to shoot impossible scores to compete.  Just doesn't feel right.

I somewhat disagree here. The whole point of a handicap system is for everyone of all skill levels to compete. He has to make up for those 11/12 strokes just like you have to make up whatever your handicap is. The goal is for everyone to play at the "par" level relative to how they would normally score. The handicap system is definitely fair and this is a handicap tournament.

Now, how accurate everyone's handicaps are based on how they play/how many handicap rated courses they play is another matter. I personally like these types of tournaments every once and awhile because it allows the entire club to compete as one.

[ed68bogus]

I agree with HeMan on this, although in concept handicapping is a fair system but for this game it's somewhat flawed.
If it is supposed be a leveller then the differences in scores would be small. This is not reflected in the leaderboard.

I'm not really fussed if the CC collectively chooses to play hcp tournies but I'm afraid I'll not be giving it the attention or effort I would normally.



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[steelereign]

I agree with HeMan on this, although in concept handicapping is a fair system but for this game it's somewhat flawed.
If it is supposed be a leveller then the differences in scores would be small. This is not reflected in the leaderboard.

I'm not really fussed if the CC collectively chooses to play hcp tournies but I'm afraid I'll not be giving it the attention or effort I would normally.



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I also agree with HeMan in general, but you made my point.  The implementation of the handicap system in HB is flawed.

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[HunterofVeritas]

I'd like to join in this debate because I find it fascinating.  I also see it affecting the club going forward, so I'd like to offer a clarification and perhaps some insight. 

I believe we must first agree to some points, namely:

• Handicaps are designed to reflect a typical score across a wide range of course difficulties for a specific player
• TGC Handicaps aren't perfect, but they are quite useful to this effect
• Non-handicapped tours show true game "skill" in that your score is reflected one-to-one with your performance on those courses in those conditions
• Handicapped tours show a snapshot of how well you played on those courses COMPARED TO how well you normally play

If you score better in a handicapped tour than I, for instance, it means for the duration of that tour, you played better than you normally do to a higher degree than I played over my normal performances.  It is a great way to show short term improvement.  If we agree that handicapped tours don't show absolute skill, and there is nothing wrong with playing a tour which shows skill as compared to ones previous performances alone, we've got a market for both types of tours. 

Next, one could argue that if you wanted to designate a "Club Pro", you'd want to use absolute skill, and therefor, a non-handicapped tour.  However, consider the following.  If a club requested you play your absolute best at a specific time (three or four days consecutively as per the tour arrangement), and you failed to do so, faulting yourself several strokes a round more than normal, then as per the request, you did NOT perform well, even if your absolute score was low compared to others.  Keep in mind that this second type of request is just as legitimate, however different from, the first.  Both are valid.

Although I don't look at our scores and say, "Top player is best," I do look at that list and say, "Top player was on his game this tour.  Well done."

Thoughts?

[HeMan]

There is not a flaw in the way HB has incorporated the handicap system. I actually like it and it reflects how the USGA Handicap Index is. It takes the best 10 rounds of the last 20 played on handicap rated courses. That is where the problem and disparity lies.

An accurate individual handicap index will be reflected by playing on 20+ handicap rated courses and continuing to play on them as your skill level rises. If someone were to say, play on only 10 handicap rated courses and rarely or sporadically plays them, their handicap is not going to be accurate.

The system works if everyone has an accurate handicap. IRL, the system is set up so that you do not actually shoot your handicap but 1 in every 5 tries. Usually a handicap index is 3/4 strokes lower than what a person would normally shoot.

As far as the Club Pro debate, I agree IRL the Club Pro would be the best scratch player. I suppose it depends what the role of Club Pro would be here. If it is someone who can instruct and help other members with their game, I would vote best scratch. If not, I like the idea that any member can be Club Pro via the handicap tournament.

[DoubtfulObelisk]

Admittedly, I'm fairly ignorant of some of the finer points of the handicap system. Should the vast majority of scores be over par? I would've expected a distribution centered roughly at even par, instead of at around +10 like we have here. On the whole, though, I enjoyed this tournament; it was fun to try to excel despite a huge disadvantage (my combined handicap for the four rounds was +40), and I'm quite proud of my performance. The playing field certainly seemed to be leveled, which is definitely a good thing. I think this type of event should be a monthly occurrence.

Handicapped or not, very solid rounds . Not an easy course. The playoff round will be on Thursday 5 pm PST. If this time does not work for the top 3 players, Please let me know ASAP We can always move it to Saturday 5 pm PST before our Social Rounds. I encourage members to join that playoff round to watch (in free roam) and chat while the top 3 play. Should be fun to see from a topside view.

I wouldn't be able to do it on Thursday night, actually. Saturday would work much better for me. I plan to stream this round on Twitch, so any interested members could watch that way, as well.

As far as the Club Pro debate, I agree IRL the Club Pro would be the best scratch player. I suppose it depends what the role of Club Pro would be here. If it is someone who can instruct and help other members with their game, I would vote best scratch. If not, I like the idea that any member can be Club Pro via the handicap tournament.

Speaking of Twitch, one of the main purposes of my last stream was to provide some instruction and help members (and any other viewers) with their game. It hadn't even occurred to me until I read your comment that that's exactly what a club pro should do. Maybe we could create two separate roles: club pro and club champion. Club pro would be more focused on providing instruction, and the club champion would be the winner of the club championship (either this tournament or a future event; personally, I think the club champ should be determined via a scratch tournament). If this sounds like a good idea, then I'd like to humbly submit my name for the role of club pro. I stream as often as I can (at least once a week, but I am a fairly busy college student, after all), and I really enjoyed my recent instructional stream, especially if it benefits the people who watched it. I think I'd be a good man for the job, and I'd consider it an honor and a privilege to do what I can to help members of this club improve their games.

[steelereign]

If this sounds like a good idea, then I'd like to humbly submit my name for the role of club pro. I stream as often as I can (at least once a week, but I am a fairly busy college student, after all), and I really enjoyed my recent instructional stream, especially if it benefits the people who watched it. I think I'd be a good man for the job, and I'd consider it an honor and a privilege to do what I can to help members of this club improve their games.

I cast my vote for DB as well.  We can all clearly learn something from him.

[ChiefBanks]

Wow, I missed a lot in the forum in one day. I did not know there was a Handicap debate but from what i have gathered so far is that there are some who enjoyed it and some not so much. Maybe making the prize "Club Pro" was a bad choice for a tournament that was handicapped. I can agree with that because we do not play enough handicap courses as it is. So from now on on alternating weeks in Social Saturdays we will play Hdcp courses to try and maintain our numbers, i also encourage occasional play of Hdcp courses during the week. Once a month we will play a Hdcp Tournament and also Non-Hdcp tournaments. I wanted to play Hdcp because it gives everyone a chance to compete in the club. Once we get 40 members we can start our new format of divisions and there will be plenty of tourneys to play then. The Hdcp system in this game is really the only way to make things even so we have to use what the game gives us.  keeping up on your Hdcp will have to be a key factor and your own responsibility when it comes to playing in future tournaments.

I have no problem giving the title of "Club Pro" to Doubtful. We all know he's the best fit for it due to being instructional and knowledgeable side of the game.

and giving the title of "Assistant Club Pro" to Steele. (he deserves it for that great 4 rounds at -2)

I would still want to play the Playoff Round THIS SATURDAY 5 pm PST just for a shot to try and beat Doubtful and Steele
(because it would be my only chance)

Anyone oppose this ?

[HunterofVeritas]

Speaking of Twitch, one of the main purposes of my last stream was to provide some instruction and help members (and any other viewers) with their game. It hadn't even occurred to me until I read your comment that that's exactly what a club pro should do. Maybe we could create two separate roles: club pro and club champion. Club pro would be more focused on providing instruction, and the club champion would be the winner of the club championship (either this tournament or a future event; personally, I think the club champ should be determined via a scratch tournament). If this sounds like a good idea, then I'd like to humbly submit my name for the role of club pro. I stream as often as I can (at least once a week, but I am a fairly busy college student, after all), and I really enjoyed my recent instructional stream, especially if it benefits the people who watched it. I think I'd be a good man for the job, and I'd consider it an honor and a privilege to do what I can to help members of this club improve their games.

Have to say I agree.  If it goes to a vote, I'll support it.  However, I believe we should let Chief weigh in or flat out decide yes or no before we get excited.  Anthony, what say you?  Shall we enter into the world of politics a bit?  Seems inevitable to a degree, but that might not be a bad thing.  (nevermind, looks like you responded while I was typing)

We all know Griffin can play very well and thus might have something valuable for the lot of us.  He won't teach me how to hit two trees in one shot - I'm still the current expert on that - however, I guess I could be persuaded to watch some educational Twitch. 

I believe the playoff should ABSOLUTELY still be held since that was the agreement beforehand. 

[steelereign]

I should be okay to play the playoff on Saturday.  Saturdays are usually crazy busy for me, but I think I can carve out an hour or two at 5.

Also, just so I'm clear, I had a blast playing the handicap tournament.  I guess it's more of a selfish thing for me.  I just want to be able to compete with the best without help.  Maybe I need to accept the fact that I'm just not that good.
:-(


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[ChiefBanks]

The Club Championship to determine a  "Club Champion" event has already been in my future plans. I have even hinted that it will be "Masters" like.  I am waiting for the new format to develop before we can proceed with that. I'm not one for politics, my goal and role in this club is for everyone to have a good time together while playing the game we love. I will always try and find a way for everyone to be in agreement with our decisions we make.