Poll

McMulligans Oaks vs Whonnock Lake Golf Club

McMulligans Oaks
23 (57.5%)
Whonnock Lake Golf Club
17 (42.5%)

Total Members Voted: 39

HB Design Tournament Rd 3 - McMulligans Oaks vs Whonnock Lake Golf Club

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SANCHEZCFC

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« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2015, 02:31:13 PM »
These comments are amazing to me

This is not really even close
Apart from your derogatory comment about auto gen,why is this not close???  everybody likes different things,if they didn't there would be no point of a contest like this,i usually like reading your posts but found this insulting to a designer trying his best against tough opposition.

Rob Landon80

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« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2015, 02:42:05 PM »
Everyone has different tastes adx, and seeing as its my first course I don't think I'm doing too bad, especially that I've made it to the third round so far is no mean feat.

Btw what do you think I could do to improve those holes already published? As I want to finish this one so any tips before publishing would help,

Thanks.

Rob, I can't respond to a certain post because we've been ordered to ignore each other and I have no intention of disobeying a direct order so I'm going to direct this comment specifically to you.

Taste is a funny thing. There is no accounting for it. There are things in this world that I love that people look at me and wonder what the hell I'm thinking. Conversely, there are things that others love that I shake my head and wonder how.

You know how I feel about your course. I felt it was designed well. I had no problem at all with  design. My criticisms were strictly on a difficulty level. And even there, you have all kinds of tastes. Some people want courses that play very easy while others bore easy unless the course is of QA School difficulty level. Again, different tastes.

So any criticisms of your course, or any course for that matter, is just that...taste. It is no actual reflection on the quality of work that you've done.

Now, somebody who does in fact just auto gen a course, knows how much or how little work they have put in. If they are fine with that, hey, it's their course. Conversely, if somebody suspects an auto gen course with little effort put in, they're going to judge that course accordingly. That is their right as well. It's why we have contests like these. You really don't know how others will vote because everybody has different tastes and judgments. Otherwise, we could just feed the course code into a computer and have the computer pick the winner.

Point is this. Take each comment here, good or bad, with a grain of salt. Because just like in baseball, your course is never as good as the best comments and never as bad as the worst. The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. It's only how many people see the one side or the other that will determine where you end up in this contest.

I learned this a long time ago. Never believe your own press, no matter how good or bad it is. Because you're libel to end up with either a swelled head or terribly depressed. I've lived through that with my music for over 36 years now. And it's taken me almost that long to just accept that some will like my music and some will hate my music and that ultimately, what I have to do, is make music for ME and nobody else. Once I learned to do that, that's when I became truly happy with my craft.

I almost fell into that trap with this course design stuff. Sure, I'd like to get better at it. But in the grand scheme of things, the only thing that matters is that I make a course that I like to play. If others like it, that'a just gravy on the mashed potatoes.

I think your course is fine. And the only reason I didn't vote for it is because CC's was easier for me to play. It had nothing to do with the "quality" of the course that you've created. So when somebody tells you that you're not in the same league, take it with a grain of salt.

An opinion does not make it a fact.

No matter what somebody says.

Thanks WT I know what you mean about praise and criticism, I'm quite good at drawing and I see myself as a fairly creative person, and get a lot of praise for my work and I tend to not let it get to me so to speak but I prefere criticism as it can let you know where your going wrong as long as it's constructive.

Tbh I didn't mind what adx was saying other than the auto gen thing as you can quite clearly see it's not and I spent a lot of time doing the fairways too, I've also seen enough tutorial vids from the experts on here to know how to lay out a course and I always set everything to 0 even the heavy rough as I  that down last and its all done manually even a blind person wild be able to tell that I put in myself and elevated the holes I do my own bunkers too, and have to say I did mess up a couple of fairway bunkers on this comp but I can't change them while I'm still in it and I'm still learning.

Thanks for your comments though and the pep talk :)

Rob Landon80

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« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2015, 03:53:42 PM »
The only thing that I found insulting was the auto gen comment! I've seen auto gen courses and mine is nothing like it but each to their own I suppose, but thanks for your input, and if I lose? I'm not that bothered as Andre is another cut above when it comes to designer but thanks for the extra votes anyway :)

Did you lay out the fairways from scratch or "draw" each hole then alter?

I do everything from scratch one hole at a time, the first thing I do is put the hole in (although I set out all the holes and whacked a bit of fairway in then deleteted the holes for the comp) I then make sure everything is set to 0 then I do the tees followed by the fairways and bunkers then I do the green and green side bunkers then I put in down the rough then the heavy rough but when ive put the green in I might change the fairway to suit hitting the green ok. Now I know this isn't the most perfect way of doing it but its the way I enjoy it so ner :)

Rob Landon80

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« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2015, 03:55:09 PM »
Everyone has different tastes adx, and seeing as its my first course I don't think I'm doing too bad, especially that I've made it to the third round so far is no mean feat.

Btw what do you think I could do to improve those holes already published? As I want to finish this one so any tips before publishing would help,

Thanks.

Rob, I think your course is quite strong, especially for your first course. Keep it up!

Thanks Andre although not on par with yours I really appreciate that coming from you :)

ADX321

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« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2015, 05:15:41 PM »
These comments are amazing to me

This is not really even close
Apart from your derogatory comment about auto gen,why is this not close???  everybody likes different things,if they didn't there would be no point of a contest like this,i usually like reading your posts but found this insulting to a designer trying his best against tough opposition.

It wasn't meant to be derogatory it was an honest question because the way the holes are laid out felt like they were.

I don't ever insult designers - I'm insulting the voters if anything - they need more education about what it takes to do these courses.  If they had it they'd know one took way more skill both from the design and actual technical implementation standpoint.



Courses I claim in order of how I like em

Pacific Bluffs Golf Club
Soggy Bottom Golf Club
Old Beaver Creek (With Reebdoog)
Deliverance Golf Club
Semmock Golf Club
Oak National
Hanging Tree
Potrornak Links

nickweis

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« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2015, 05:43:02 PM »
These comments are amazing to me

This is not really even close
Apart from your derogatory comment about auto gen,why is this not close???  everybody likes different things,if they didn't there would be no point of a contest like this,i usually like reading your posts but found this insulting to a designer trying his best against tough opposition.

It wasn't meant to be derogatory it was an honest question because the way the holes are laid out felt like they were.

I don't ever insult designers - I'm insulting the voters if anything - they need more education about what it takes to do these courses.  If they had it they'd know one took way more skill both from the design and actual technical implementation standpoint.

Why would someone vote on a designers skill and technical design ? I understand there are a lot of factors that sway a vote but at the end of the day it comes down to did I enjoy playing golf at this course, and would I come back to play again? 

Something as simple as being to hard or to easy could turn a player off of a course and cause them not to come back, and probably not vote for it.  It's different strokes for different folks, and votes go to courses that people like for their own reasons.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 05:45:41 PM by nickweis »
My Courses:
Red Rock National
The Links @ Inverness Point
Pine Park Lodge (9 hole)
Helena Island Estate (9 hole)
Grizzly Paw Golf Club
Killarney Golf and Country Club
The Great Northern G&CC
The Links of Isolation Island
Coyote Canyon (Original Members, Tour and now 2016 multi)
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bfdogger34

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« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2015, 06:25:06 PM »
I see both sides of this...I thought that both courses were great--and I enjoyed them both. I voted for Whonnock but it was a close choice for me. Both courses look great and are playable. Ultimately I recognized the technical aspects of Whonnock and that did sway me--but I agree with nickweis for most people it comes down to the enjoyment of playing a course. What each of us enjoy while playing differs. My example is this--the first hole at Whonnock is impressive, but it bothered me in all three rounds thus far. Andre knows what he is doing--so the false front on the first green is well thought out and intentional. I personally don't care for a false front that seemingly is half of the green. It was my fault that I left my shot short of the hole (in all 3 rounds), but I didn't care for the slope that rolls a mile down the green. I like the fact that he created the challenge, I just thought that rolling all the way off of the green was a bit much. My preference. In a contest, how much should I "count this" against him? Everyone sees this differently and there isn't a correct answer as far as I'm concerned.
My courses...
The River Course at Deep Elem (Currently being reworked)
Dupree's Diamond Country Club (Currently being reworked)
Cassidy Cove Golf Course (Currently being reworked)

SANCHEZCFC

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« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2015, 06:46:17 PM »
I see both sides of this...I thought that both courses were great--and I enjoyed them both. I voted for Whonnock but it was a close choice for me. Both courses look great and are playable. Ultimately I recognized the technical aspects of Whonnock and that did sway me--but I agree with nickweis for most people it comes down to the enjoyment of playing a course. What each of us enjoy while playing differs. My example is this--the first hole at Whonnock is impressive, but it bothered me in all three rounds thus far. Andre knows what he is doing--so the false front on the first green is well thought out and intentional. I personally don't care for a false front that seemingly is half of the green. It was my fault that I left my shot short of the hole (in all 3 rounds), but I didn't care for the slope that rolls a mile down the green. I like the fact that he created the challenge, I just thought that rolling all the way off of the green was a bit much. My preference. In a contest, how much should I "count this" against him? Everyone sees this differently and there isn't a correct answer as far as I'm concerned.
totally agree with your assesement of whonnock hole 1,but i think robs hole 1 is equally as good,ok with wind against ur prob not getting there & maybe should have been a par 5,but imo its a great hole because it does not give u an easy start,to many courses have a par 5 first & last hole,which for most players is a given birdie.

ADX321

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« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2015, 09:17:06 PM »
I see both sides of this...I thought that both courses were great--and I enjoyed them both. I voted for Whonnock but it was a close choice for me. Both courses look great and are playable. Ultimately I recognized the technical aspects of Whonnock and that did sway me--but I agree with nickweis for most people it comes down to the enjoyment of playing a course. What each of us enjoy while playing differs. My example is this--the first hole at Whonnock is impressive, but it bothered me in all three rounds thus far. Andre knows what he is doing--so the false front on the first green is well thought out and intentional. I personally don't care for a false front that seemingly is half of the green. It was my fault that I left my shot short of the hole (in all 3 rounds), but I didn't care for the slope that rolls a mile down the green. I like the fact that he created the challenge, I just thought that rolling all the way off of the green was a bit much. My preference. In a contest, how much should I "count this" against him? Everyone sees this differently and there isn't a correct answer as far as I'm concerned.
totally agree with your assesement of whonnock hole 1,but i think robs hole 1 is equally as good,ok with wind against ur prob not getting there & maybe should have been a par 5,but imo its a great hole because it does not give u an easy start,to many courses have a par 5 first & last hole,which for most players is a given birdie.

the first rule of golf course design is to get people off to a good start - the 1st hole should be one with little trouble that doesn't need 2 long shots in case golfers don't have time to hit balls before the round.

You do this to help speed up play - making an unreachable par 4 the first hole would absolutely kill golf courses - you'd get 3 groups on the 1st hole all day long

350-375 yards is ideal

but to say a par 4 you can't get to in 2 is good?  no it's not good it's ridiculous

Courses I claim in order of how I like em

Pacific Bluffs Golf Club
Soggy Bottom Golf Club
Old Beaver Creek (With Reebdoog)
Deliverance Golf Club
Semmock Golf Club
Oak National
Hanging Tree
Potrornak Links

heshwuan

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« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2015, 12:41:10 AM »
the first rule of golf course design is to get people off to a good start - the 1st hole should be one with little trouble that doesn't need 2 long shots in case golfers don't have time to hit balls before the round.

You do this to help speed up play - making an unreachable par 4 the first hole would absolutely kill golf courses - you'd get 3 groups on the 1st hole all day long

350-375 yards is ideal

but to say a par 4 you can't get to in 2 is good?  no it's not good it's ridiculous

Its true that the first hole should allow for flow of play and help prevent back-up, but this is a video game. To discount his design just because of that is unfair.

The first hole of Whonnock is a chore to play no matter what the wind is doing, but I had no problems reaching that 500 yd par 4 1st on McMulligans and because of its features and the challenge it presented, without forcing me to place my shots with an eye-dropper, made me want to play it again. I cant say the same for whonnock and its following holes.

If youre trying to enlighten people on your course design theories, your elitist attitude and negativity isnt helping. Sorry.

Rob Landon80

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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2015, 03:22:46 AM »
I see both sides of this...I thought that both courses were great--and I enjoyed them both. I voted for Whonnock but it was a close choice for me. Both courses look great and are playable. Ultimately I recognized the technical aspects of Whonnock and that did sway me--but I agree with nickweis for most people it comes down to the enjoyment of playing a course. What each of us enjoy while playing differs. My example is this--the first hole at Whonnock is impressive, but it bothered me in all three rounds thus far. Andre knows what he is doing--so the false front on the first green is well thought out and intentional. I personally don't care for a false front that seemingly is half of the green. It was my fault that I left my shot short of the hole (in all 3 rounds), but I didn't care for the slope that rolls a mile down the green. I like the fact that he created the challenge, I just thought that rolling all the way off of the green was a bit much. My preference. In a contest, how much should I "count this" against him? Everyone sees this differently and there isn't a correct answer as far as I'm concerned.
totally agree with your assesement of whonnock hole 1,but i think robs hole 1 is equally as good,ok with wind against ur prob not getting there & maybe should have been a par 5,but imo its a great hole because it does not give u an easy start,to many courses have a par 5 first & last hole,which for most players is a given birdie.

the first rule of golf course design is to get people off to a good start - the 1st hole should be one with little trouble that doesn't need 2 long shots in case golfers don't have time to hit balls before the round.

You do this to help speed up play - making an unreachable par 4 the first hole would absolutely kill golf courses - you'd get 3 groups on the 1st hole all day long

350-375 yards is ideal

but to say a par 4 you can't get to in 2 is good?  no it's not good it's ridiculous

Duly noted, thanks for your input adx.

pyates

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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2015, 10:01:44 AM »
First off, I don't think this should be taken into account at all, but wow, amazing effort for a first course.  I wouldn't have guessed it was your first one :)

Two very different courses that both look and play very differently.  Whonnock is very polished, looks great and plays nice.  McMulligans on the other hand, has some lovely touches but isn't as perfectly presented.  However it has a lot more that seemed original to me.  There are some different and interesting ideas in there and some great views.  Going to be a difficult choice and should be a close matchup on the voting IMO. Well done both
Full Courses:
Sandy Foot Links (TGCTLive Olympic Entry)
Royal Brumby
Tye Dunes II
Tye Dunes
Marazion Golf Club
University Links (TGCT 2015 Open Championship)

ADX321

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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2015, 10:08:40 AM »
the first rule of golf course design is to get people off to a good start - the 1st hole should be one with little trouble that doesn't need 2 long shots in case golfers don't have time to hit balls before the round.

You do this to help speed up play - making an unreachable par 4 the first hole would absolutely kill golf courses - you'd get 3 groups on the 1st hole all day long

350-375 yards is ideal

but to say a par 4 you can't get to in 2 is good?  no it's not good it's ridiculous

Its true that the first hole should allow for flow of play and help prevent back-up, but this is a video game. To discount his design just because of that is unfair.

The first hole of Whonnock is a chore to play no matter what the wind is doing, but I had no problems reaching that 500 yd par 4 1st on McMulligans and because of its features and the challenge it presented, without forcing me to place my shots with an eye-dropper, made me want to play it again. I cant say the same for whonnock and its following holes.

If youre trying to enlighten people on your course design theories, your elitist attitude and negativity isnt helping. Sorry.

they aren't my theories they're anyone who's read 2 pages of any golf course design books

I realize this is a video game shouldn't we be trying to make courses that could exist?

Courses I claim in order of how I like em

Pacific Bluffs Golf Club
Soggy Bottom Golf Club
Old Beaver Creek (With Reebdoog)
Deliverance Golf Club
Semmock Golf Club
Oak National
Hanging Tree
Potrornak Links

SANCHEZCFC

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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2015, 11:35:04 AM »
the first rule of golf course design is to get people off to a good start - the 1st hole should be one with little trouble that doesn't need 2 long shots in case golfers don't have time to hit balls before the round.

You do this to help speed up play - making an unreachable par 4 the first hole would absolutely kill golf courses - you'd get 3 groups on the 1st hole all day long

350-375 yards is ideal

but to say a par 4 you can't get to in 2 is good?  no it's not good it's ridiculous

Its true that the first hole should allow for flow of play and help prevent back-up, but this is a video game. To discount his design just because of that is unfair.

The first hole of Whonnock is a chore to play no matter what the wind is doing, but I had no problems reaching that 500 yd par 4 1st on McMulligans and because of its features and the challenge it presented, without forcing me to place my shots with an eye-dropper, made me want to play it again. I cant say the same for whonnock and its following holes.

If youre trying to enlighten people on your course design theories, your elitist attitude and negativity isnt helping. Sorry.

they aren't my theories they're anyone who's read 2 pages of any golf course design books

I realize this is a video game shouldn't we be trying to make courses that could exist?
My god if you ever played TW games i bet you loved,Predator,Penguin Falls,Black Rock Cove,The Highlands,Emerald Dragon..etc..those courses could never exist,but they were fun 2 play,name 10 people on here who have read any book on golf design,most people design for fun,we cant all be pete dye or jack nicklaus,give people a break man.

ADX321

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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2015, 12:49:39 PM »
the first rule of golf course design is to get people off to a good start - the 1st hole should be one with little trouble that doesn't need 2 long shots in case golfers don't have time to hit balls before the round.

You do this to help speed up play - making an unreachable par 4 the first hole would absolutely kill golf courses - you'd get 3 groups on the 1st hole all day long

350-375 yards is ideal

but to say a par 4 you can't get to in 2 is good?  no it's not good it's ridiculous

Its true that the first hole should allow for flow of play and help prevent back-up, but this is a video game. To discount his design just because of that is unfair.

The first hole of Whonnock is a chore to play no matter what the wind is doing, but I had no problems reaching that 500 yd par 4 1st on McMulligans and because of its features and the challenge it presented, without forcing me to place my shots with an eye-dropper, made me want to play it again. I cant say the same for whonnock and its following holes.

If youre trying to enlighten people on your course design theories, your elitist attitude and negativity isnt helping. Sorry.

they aren't my theories they're anyone who's read 2 pages of any golf course design books

I realize this is a video game shouldn't we be trying to make courses that could exist?
My god if you ever played TW games i bet you loved,Predator,Penguin Falls,Black Rock Cove,The Highlands,Emerald Dragon..etc..those courses could never exist,but they were fun 2 play,name 10 people on here who have read any book on golf design,most people design for fun,we cant all be pete dye or jack nicklaus,give people a break man.

Never did - but outright fantasy courses are fine when that's the goal

I think there are several people here who have researched golf design actually :)

Courses I claim in order of how I like em

Pacific Bluffs Golf Club
Soggy Bottom Golf Club
Old Beaver Creek (With Reebdoog)
Deliverance Golf Club
Semmock Golf Club
Oak National
Hanging Tree
Potrornak Links

 

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