A note to lidar designers

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jeffield

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« on: March 19, 2019, 10:24:06 AM »
Since we have a new group of lidar designers taking over a substantial portion of rcr. Courses please remember to think about the hole surroundings as well as the accuracy of the course.  Course accuracy looks great so far. But to make the course complete/ really good the surrounding aesthetics really contribute to the immersion.  I'll probably join in at some point. As I've moved to pc. For the better gameplay.  It's tough. Don't know what to do about the last two courses I created on ps4 that I don't want to lose going forward but I'll get there.  I'm hoping there will be some adjustments to The gameplay in the ps4  version going forward so I can feel comfortable about purchasing both.  We'll see.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 10:25:58 AM by jeffield »
Created RCR Courses: 
Links at Lighthouse Sound
nicknamed "The Pebble Beach of the East"

Links at Gettysburg
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War Admiral at GlenRiddle
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Legends- Moorland Course
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Americas top courses '03 & '09

Terry Grayson

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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2019, 11:07:34 AM »
100% percent agree with this, however there is one small problem

One of my pet peeves is a course that is superbly planted in and around the hole but then the surrounding area of the course is left completely barren.... So I agree totally with your comment

This is basically not possible with these lidar courses due to the file size and usage of plant meter once you import the terrain and such into the course file...

As an example, Purgatory came in at 9mb with half the plant meter completely used before i did a single thing to the course file.. . I was unable to plant the course like I wanted too due to this fact, so I strategically planted it to try and hide the "unused" parts of the course and when I got to the edges of the actual course plot, I would take a large bush and plant behind the trees to hide the fact from ground level that there was "Nothing" behind those trees to the edge of the plot.... I had grand ideas on how I was going to plant this course but in the end I was only able to do so much ... I didnt even get to finish the driving range and clubhouse areas as once I finished the last hole, there was zero plant meter left.. I even would try and rob certain areas of plantings but in the end I went with what made the overall course look the best I could..but doing this made it impossible to give much attention to the unused portions of the course which made me cringe ha ha ha

Chad did a wonderful job with this tool, and I know he continues to look at ways to reduce file size and hopefully come up with a way to reduce the overall usage of the plant meter.. Until that time comes the designer of these Lidar courses will have to try and strategically use what is available as far as plant meter and such

Another example: I wanted to pull in Arrowhead Golf Club just south of Denver Colorado... This course has some magnificent rock formations throughout.. The lidar pulled those in absolutely perfectly, but I was left with a 27 mb file size and a plant meter that was completely full meaning I couldnt plant a single plant, tree etc.....

Great topic and we are searching for ways to make it happen because I agree again 100% with your original post

Terry
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 11:12:23 AM by Terry Grayson »

jeffield

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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2019, 12:04:58 PM »
100% percent agree with this, however there is one small problem

One of my pet peeves is a course that is superbly planted in and around the hole but then the surrounding area of the course is left completely barren.... So I agree totally with your comment

This is basically not possible with these lidar courses due to the file size and usage of plant meter once you import the terrain and such into the course file...

As an example, Purgatory came in at 9mb with half the plant meter completely used before i did a single thing to the course file.. . I was unable to plant the course like I wanted too due to this fact, so I strategically planted it to try and hide the "unused" parts of the course and when I got to the edges of the actual course plot, I would take a large bush and plant behind the trees to hide the fact from ground level that there was "Nothing" behind those trees to the edge of the plot.... I had grand ideas on how I was going to plant this course but in the end I was only able to do so much ... I didnt even get to finish the driving range and clubhouse areas as once I finished the last hole, there was zero plant meter left.. I even would try and rob certain areas of plantings but in the end I went with what made the overall course look the best I could..but doing this made it impossible to give much attention to the unused portions of the course which made me cringe ha ha ha

Chad did a wonderful job with this tool, and I know he continues to look at ways to reduce file size and hopefully come up with a way to reduce the overall usage of the plant meter.. Until that time comes the designer of these Lidar courses will have to try and strategically use what is available as far as plant meter and such

Another example: I wanted to pull in Arrowhead Golf Club just south of Denver Colorado... This course has some magnificent rock formations throughout.. The lidar pulled those in absolutely perfectly, but I was left with a 27 mb file size and a plant meter that was completely full meaning I couldnt plant a single plant, tree etc.....

Great topic and we are searching for ways to make it happen because I agree again 100% with your original post

Terry

Oh, I wasn't aware of severe plant meter issues with lidar.  Hopefully something can change on that at some point.  That arrowhead course sounds interesting.  I'd like to play it
  Love that area!
Created RCR Courses: 
Links at Lighthouse Sound
nicknamed "The Pebble Beach of the East"

Links at Gettysburg
golf digest 4.5/5 stars

War Admiral at GlenRiddle
2017 top 40 places to play in Maryland

Legends- Moorland Course
#37 Toughest Course in U.S.- Golf Digest
Americas top courses '03 & '09

RockManDan

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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2019, 12:27:48 PM »
I haven’t tried the Lidar yet.... but this would definitely be a deal breaker for me.  I wonder if trees and plants could be turned down in Settings to give you some of the meter back?   One of my favorite parts of the game is creating artistic Vistas beyond the course itself.
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Bradley Stuart

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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2019, 12:35:21 PM »
27 MB?  Wow.  How does the file grow 18 MB once you have everything imported from lidar and OSM?  I'm seriously puzzled as my recently published fictional course came in at 1.5 MB with the planting meter at 90%.  Do splines make THAT much of a difference in planting resources and file size?  My two current lidar courses look like they will be about 5 to 7 MB once fully imported.  Like you, I am (was) planning on going nuts with the perimeter of the courses but now I may have to reconsider.

The Club at Old Mill Creek  -  Tournament Course  -  Lake County, Illinois

Yeltzman

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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2019, 01:47:50 PM »
Lets hope HB working with Chad to hopefully come to a better solution,My only Hope HB embrace this and don't do something which either blocks it working in this game or future games.

Terry Grayson

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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2019, 01:58:14 PM »
Dont think I explained it as well as I could have

1. Purgatory:  After importing the lidar information and all the surfaces from Open Street Map the course file was 9mb...   That was with zero plants, trees, etc.. The plant meter was already at 1/2 way across without the first bit of plantings. The Lidar information somehow and I cant speak intelligently on it, uses some of the plant meter as well. You can bring in trees and such from lidar and OSM but it drives the Plant meter even higher.Once I began working on it, I resurfaced all the tees and flattened and resurfaced all the cart paths and a few of the bunkers, then completely finished my planting the course published at 8mb...  So the file size became a bit smaller the more I worked on it somehow


2.  Arrowhead :  The course with the massive rock faces that lidar picked up..   I brought in the lidar information, I traced only one hole for the entire course, so when I brought that over from Open Street map and nothing else the course file was 27mb and the plant meter was completely pegged with only one hole laid down and those rock faces.... 

With all the information Lidar is processing I think that takes up file size and plant meter...

I got lucky on Purgatory as the course file was only 9mb and I had half a plant meter left to work with... VctryLnSprts is doing a course near him called Dauphin Highlands in PA, that I am planting and after bringing in Lidar and all the traced out holes and such and even the trees on this file, its right at 8mb and there is still 1/2 plant meter left on this one as well

Hope that makes better sense than my first post :)

jeffield

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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2019, 03:24:28 PM »
Interesting. I wonder what people would prefer in some cases.  A fleshed out really close course ( provided its done well) or a more barren topographically perfect one?

I'm feeling like there still may be room for really welldone rcr's from scratch.  Am  I'm wrong?

Can i stir a pot or what?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 03:27:31 PM by jeffield »
Created RCR Courses: 
Links at Lighthouse Sound
nicknamed "The Pebble Beach of the East"

Links at Gettysburg
golf digest 4.5/5 stars

War Admiral at GlenRiddle
2017 top 40 places to play in Maryland

Legends- Moorland Course
#37 Toughest Course in U.S.- Golf Digest
Americas top courses '03 & '09

Bradley Stuart

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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2019, 03:40:30 PM »
Well, I did a little experiment with the Shadow Creek plot that I am working on.  The blank course file with only the elevation data is 8,350 kb and once I add the splined textures from OSM the file size jumps to 9,590 kb.  That's a pretty big jump in file size.  I wonder how much difference there is in the planting meter between the two.  I'll report back with my findings.

Also, I think I may have an idea for greatly reducing the file/planting meter size while still retaining all of the important elevation data with just a little extra work but I need to do some experiments.

The Club at Old Mill Creek  -  Tournament Course  -  Lake County, Illinois

Bradley Stuart

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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2019, 04:05:20 PM »
It looks like the planting meter had a very slight increase between the two files.  I would say it went from 40% to about 41% if that.  I'll keep an eye on which things change the meter and how much.

The Club at Old Mill Creek  -  Tournament Course  -  Lake County, Illinois

ChadGolf

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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2019, 07:42:02 PM »
An a FYI file size doesn't correspond to meter usage at all.

Theoretically the meter is how "taxed" the final rendered course will be.  The files have a lot of elements that take up file size but don't remain for the final course.  If you have a bunch of spline points, they take up file size, but eventually end up all as one green/bunker/fairway.

The main usage right now is that the entire terrain needs to be simulated/painted in and that is what takes longer at startup/eats up the resources.

TaS

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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2019, 03:03:38 AM »
I'm having no problems with the files sizes so far, but I'm really using the masking a lot and I'm electing to plant my own trees.  For forested areas, I'm letting the program auto generate them and I'm just clearing them where I don't want them.  After that, I plant the specific trees and grasses. 

The auto generate takes up virtually no meter compared to importing them all in and it really doesn't look much different IMO. 

RockManDan

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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2019, 12:07:08 PM »
I'm having no problems with the files sizes so far, but I'm really using the masking a lot and I'm electing to plant my own trees.  For forested areas, I'm letting the program auto generate them and I'm just clearing them where I don't want them.  After that, I plant the specific trees and grasses. 

The auto generate takes up virtually no meter compared to importing them all in and it really doesn't look much different IMO.


This is what I’ve done all along.  I turn the trees all the way down, plot out and lay down the course... then I turn the trees back up and adjust and weed out the ones I don’t want.  Not with Lidar of course....
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