has Lidar been good?

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AndersNM

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« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2019, 10:21:19 AM »

Interesting but, when planting trees manually the old way that ate up a lot of plant meter and you never got the amount of coverage you were looking for.   So it became known that when designing a course from scratch the best thing to do was to have high tree coverage upon initial creation and then remove/ adjust tree types as you went.... in doing this initial high tree coverage you didnt use any plant meter and you started with a map full of trees.   Maybe this is where lidar falls short in its advantage of recreating a course from scratch.

You are right about planting individual trees eating up plant meter but wrong about not having high tree coverage with a Lidar plot.  Even though when you start the Chadgolf process of importing terrain you have no trees, plants, rocks, etc., after you get the importing finished and the course into TGC 2019, you can then turn the tree, plant, grass all the way up in the "Terrain Settings" menu and there will be beaucoup nature on your plot with no increase in the meter.  You can then remove them to your hearts content!

Indeed, and this is what I do on all my courses - but it is important to note that auto-gen trees are not enough and also needs a significant cleanup, and it takes time to plant a course with or without lidar data. The only difference is that the lidar data takes some amount of plant meter, but 2/3 of the plant meter is imho more than enough to have a well planted course, dense forests etc.

Sandsaver

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« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2019, 10:34:41 AM »
it takes time to plant a course with or without lidar data.

I completely agree.  It is essential if you are trying to replicate a real course, and takes as much time as planting an imaginary one to do well.

jeffield

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« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2019, 03:48:07 PM »
Good information guys. I havent done a rcr in about 10 months and have moved to pc as well for a better experience but maybe one day i will be ready to dive into this chad lidar course creating.  That is , if the game will be continuing.   It takes a lot of time to make a good rcr.  Its something that shouldnt be rushed.
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Ariel Atom

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« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2019, 05:07:52 PM »
okay, very slow around here so I was just thinking a bit about what ive liked about the game from its inception until now.  of course we could go into many changes , mainly for the better with the progress towards tgc '19 but one things that's been a big game changer is the use of Lidar Mapping. 
    don't get me wrong, I love being able to sit down and play some accurately mapped courses that I would never get a chance to play in the game without Lidar.   my point is,,   we used to have some really meticulously crafted rcr courses such as **** National, Merion and, Congressional, just to name three (there are many more).  the creators took great care into making each hole paint a sort of beautiful picture as the flyby ran off and it could be quite awe inspiring when it was done really well.   and, now with Lidar yes, we get more accuracy but we've lost that immersive feeling and, we've lost that challenge from the designers to get better and better at creating/ painting the picture of each individual hole as best they can.   using lidar you can just tell there isn't enough plant meter leftover to really create the environment for each hole and, we end up with very generic looking, accurate rcr courses and that's all.  that generic look can get boring/stale after a while. 
     I don't know, it just kind of takes the immersion out of the game for me a bit.
   okay im done,feel free to bash me....   :)  I  understand.  Lidar is more realistic and, that's important.

There's so much to chew on, and I think the majority of the bad rep LiDAR courses have has been well deserved. That's in no part thanks to how easy the tool makes it to make what I refer to as 'spline, import, publish' courses. Even more so, it attracts newer designers (such as myself, especially at first) who view LiDAR courses as a way to wet their feet with the designer tools, and working on LiDAR courses eventually gave me the confidence to try branching into fictional ones.

My first one was pretty poorly made and deserves a remake at some point, where my most recent one (black rock cc tour) had over 170 hours put into it. Let's not forget about the work that went into checking bunker depths, smoothing out some rather horrific artifacts, getting the shapes right, and all the other initial polishing work that probably takes between 20 and 40 hours for most courses if you're going for a very precise result...but for the subject of this post that's not so important.

There was so much to do with the environment on this course and a finite amount of object meter (I think I started with around 60% of the meter available), so you have to budget what you do carefully. Unfortunately, in this instance it meant setting a priority order to see how much was available for each next step, which ended up being 20+ hours of rock planting before any grass went in. By then I had under half the meter left, so with how much grass there is on the course the only option was to spam plant all of it (25-30hrs). That went up to around 75% of the meter which was then spent on redoing the trees (~25hrs) using google earth 3d ground view as a guide as the course just didn't look right without them. Generally speaking I used whatever pictures I could find and abused the crap out of 3d ground view, and the end result was a course that, aside from a few greens that had some artifacts yet few pictures to show how they should be (and a few random minor artifacts throughout the course that would've taken another 50+ hrs to find and eliminate entirely) the course should be 99% accurate.

Anyone who takes on a LiDAR course and wishes to give it the 'full treatment' can end up with a very good RCR. You can make a far better approximation in just 10-20hrs with LiDAR than you ever could by hand, but these courses shouldn't be compared to a 'true' RCR since that isn't a fitting description of them. If you pick a relatively basic course with top quality data (upper half of QL1), it might take 'only' 60-90 hours for a detailed LiDAR RCR and some courses might need several times that much if the goal is to 'nail it.'

I would also go so far as to bet that the vast majority of published LiDAR courses have at least 15-20% of object meter remaining, or that if they look that way but it's not the case then perhaps creator may not have budgeted the limited available meter all that wisely.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 05:10:53 PM by Ariel Atom »

Jwheels9876

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« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2019, 08:18:20 PM »
Are you guys spending 6 hours a hole planting? 120+ hours on a RCR with Lidar? That seems a bit crazy.

Terry Grayson

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« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2019, 11:27:47 PM »
I released the very first Lidar course for TGC2019

Purgatory in Noblesville Indiana

The plant meter was something that really worried me, but as someone mentioned above I masked some of the issues but I think I was able to capture the look and feel
of the course pretty well.. I am pretty much known for my planting and really tried to capture the course... Did I wish I had more plant meter to work with absolutely, because
as it stood I was unable to plant it as accurate as I would have liked but overall I was pleased with how the course turned out

Hole 11 I think it is, is the one hole on the course where I said the heck with it and planted that hole how I thought it looked and felt on the many pictures , videos etc
I had of this course and I loved the look of that one... just wished I would have been able to do the entire course in this manner..

Love some of the lidar courses, people like BPetty, VctryLnSprts, pithydoctorg and numerous others have put out some amazing lidar courses....  Would I do it again, I doubt it because I love the look and feel of user created courses, and am a sucker for eye candy ha ha ...

Just my thoughts :)


Andyf

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« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2019, 04:21:52 AM »
Are you guys spending 6 hours a hole planting? 120+ hours on a RCR with Lidar? That seems a bit crazy.
For me on my home course it took a lot longer than 6 hours per hole... but that's because I was matching the course up with 1000's of photos I had taken along with google Earth and confirming the LIDAR elevations

As an example for a single tree I would get the distance from 3 points on google maps to triangulate it and then draw those measure lines in the designer to give me the precise location. Then it's a case of finding the best fit in terms of the limited trees available within the designer and then scaling and rotating it to match the photos I had taken so that all the sightlines from various points in the course looked exactly like real life in terms of heights of trees from a distance etc. Now multiply that up by the 1000's of trees on my course and you'll see it can become very time consuming.

And that is just the trees. I did exactly the same with the houses and other buildings on the course. I spent hours flicking between the designer and google maps streetview to make sure the houses were orientated correctly and looked as similar as possible to the real life buildings.

And then there is the sculpting required to make the off course areas blend in with the LIDAR masked course. All of that takes time if you want to do it properly by matching it up with the elevation data from topographic maps.

Will all of the above be noticed by anyone who plays the course... I'm pretty certain that 99.9999% of people who have played it won't notice but fellow members of my course who have played it all say it is a really good representation of the course and that's why I did it.

Could I have just roughly planted trees and buildings, not checked anything and hit publish in a few hours then yes I could but I doubt I would have got the feedback I have on the course.

Yes, I ran out of plant meter in the end and would have liked to expand the off course areas even more which is why on my next courses I'm doing I've masked the course really tightly and I'm then sculpting the remainder of the area by hand to match the topographic maps and google maps in order to save enough plant meter to allow me to do the course exactly how I want it.

Does it take a hell of a long time....? Yes. is it worth it? For 99.99% of people who may not notice then probably not but it's worth it for me and that's how I'll continue.

In my opinion if you are doing a LIDAR RCR 'properly' then it will probably take you longer than making a fantasy course if you're aiming to get it incredibly accurate.

Andy

jeffield

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« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2019, 08:18:06 AM »
Are you guys spending 6 hours a hole planting? 120+ hours on a RCR with Lidar? That seems a bit crazy.
For me on my home course it took a lot longer than 6 hours per hole... but that's because I was matching the course up with 1000's of photos I had taken along with google Earth and confirming the LIDAR elevations

As an example for a single tree I would get the distance from 3 points on google maps to triangulate it and then draw those measure lines in the designer to give me the precise location. Then it's a case of finding the best fit in terms of the limited trees available within the designer and then scaling and rotating it to match the photos I had taken so that all the sightlines from various points in the course looked exactly like real life in terms of heights of trees from a distance etc. Now multiply that up by the 1000's of trees on my course and you'll see it can become very time consuming.

And that is just the trees. I did exactly the same with the houses and other buildings on the course. I spent hours flicking between the designer and google maps streetview to make sure the houses were orientated correctly and looked as similar as possible to the real life buildings.

And then there is the sculpting required to make the off course areas blend in with the LIDAR masked course. All of that takes time if you want to do it properly by matching it up with the elevation data from topographic maps.

Will all of the above be noticed by anyone who plays the course... I'm pretty certain that 99.9999% of people who have played it won't notice but fellow members of my course who have played it all say it is a really good representation of the course and that's why I did it.

Could I have just roughly planted trees and buildings, not checked anything and hit publish in a few hours then yes I could but I doubt I would have got the feedback I have on the course.

Yes, I ran out of plant meter in the end and would have liked to expand the off course areas even more which is why on my next courses I'm doing I've masked the course really tightly and I'm then sculpting the remainder of the area by hand to match the topographic maps and google maps in order to save enough plant meter to allow me to do the course exactly how I want it.

Does it take a hell of a long time....? Yes. is it worth it? For 99.99% of people who may not notice then probably not but it's worth it for me and that's how I'll continue.

In my opinion if you are doing a LIDAR RCR 'properly' then it will probably take you longer than making a fantasy course if you're aiming to get it incredibly accurate.

Andy

sounds good.  did you publish your home course rcr?  I would like to give it a try.
Created RCR Courses: 
Links at Lighthouse Sound
nicknamed "The Pebble Beach of the East"

Links at Gettysburg
golf digest 4.5/5 stars

War Admiral at GlenRiddle
2017 top 40 places to play in Maryland

Legends- Moorland Course
#37 Toughest Course in U.S.- Golf Digest
Americas top courses '03 & '09

Andyf

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« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2019, 08:29:01 AM »
Are you guys spending 6 hours a hole planting? 120+ hours on a RCR with Lidar? That seems a bit crazy.
For me on my home course it took a lot longer than 6 hours per hole... but that's because I was matching the course up with 1000's of photos I had taken along with google Earth and confirming the LIDAR elevations

As an example for a single tree I would get the distance from 3 points on google maps to triangulate it and then draw those measure lines in the designer to give me the precise location. Then it's a case of finding the best fit in terms of the limited trees available within the designer and then scaling and rotating it to match the photos I had taken so that all the sightlines from various points in the course looked exactly like real life in terms of heights of trees from a distance etc. Now multiply that up by the 1000's of trees on my course and you'll see it can become very time consuming.

And that is just the trees. I did exactly the same with the houses and other buildings on the course. I spent hours flicking between the designer and google maps streetview to make sure the houses were orientated correctly and looked as similar as possible to the real life buildings.

And then there is the sculpting required to make the off course areas blend in with the LIDAR masked course. All of that takes time if you want to do it properly by matching it up with the elevation data from topographic maps.

Will all of the above be noticed by anyone who plays the course... I'm pretty certain that 99.9999% of people who have played it won't notice but fellow members of my course who have played it all say it is a really good representation of the course and that's why I did it.

Could I have just roughly planted trees and buildings, not checked anything and hit publish in a few hours then yes I could but I doubt I would have got the feedback I have on the course.

Yes, I ran out of plant meter in the end and would have liked to expand the off course areas even more which is why on my next courses I'm doing I've masked the course really tightly and I'm then sculpting the remainder of the area by hand to match the topographic maps and google maps in order to save enough plant meter to allow me to do the course exactly how I want it.

Does it take a hell of a long time....? Yes. is it worth it? For 99.99% of people who may not notice then probably not but it's worth it for me and that's how I'll continue.

In my opinion if you are doing a LIDAR RCR 'properly' then it will probably take you longer than making a fantasy course if you're aiming to get it incredibly accurate.

Andy

sounds good.  did you publish your home course rcr?  I would like to give it a try.
Hi Jeff, yes I did publish it. It's called Birchwood UK LIDAR and I'm always open to feedback from people who have played it. As a video game course it will play easy due to the accuracy and distances of the clubs however it's still a good challenge and it's already achieved handicap status.

Andy

jeffield

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« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2019, 10:51:42 AM »
Are you guys spending 6 hours a hole planting? 120+ hours on a RCR with Lidar? That seems a bit crazy.
For me on my home course it took a lot longer than 6 hours per hole... but that's because I was matching the course up with 1000's of photos I had taken along with google Earth and confirming the LIDAR elevations

As an example for a single tree I would get the distance from 3 points on google maps to triangulate it and then draw those measure lines in the designer to give me the precise location. Then it's a case of finding the best fit in terms of the limited trees available within the designer and then scaling and rotating it to match the photos I had taken so that all the sightlines from various points in the course looked exactly like real life in terms of heights of trees from a distance etc. Now multiply that up by the 1000's of trees on my course and you'll see it can become very time consuming.

And that is just the trees. I did exactly the same with the houses and other buildings on the course. I spent hours flicking between the designer and google maps streetview to make sure the houses were orientated correctly and looked as similar as possible to the real life buildings.

And then there is the sculpting required to make the off course areas blend in with the LIDAR masked course. All of that takes time if you want to do it properly by matching it up with the elevation data from topographic maps.

Will all of the above be noticed by anyone who plays the course... I'm pretty certain that 99.9999% of people who have played it won't notice but fellow members of my course who have played it all say it is a really good representation of the course and that's why I did it.

Could I have just roughly planted trees and buildings, not checked anything and hit publish in a few hours then yes I could but I doubt I would have got the feedback I have on the course.

Yes, I ran out of plant meter in the end and would have liked to expand the off course areas even more which is why on my next courses I'm doing I've masked the course really tightly and I'm then sculpting the remainder of the area by hand to match the topographic maps and google maps in order to save enough plant meter to allow me to do the course exactly how I want it.

Does it take a hell of a long time....? Yes. is it worth it? For 99.99% of people who may not notice then probably not but it's worth it for me and that's how I'll continue.

In my opinion if you are doing a LIDAR RCR 'properly' then it will probably take you longer than making a fantasy course if you're aiming to get it incredibly accurate.

Andy

sounds good.  did you publish your home course rcr?  I would like to give it a try.
Hi Jeff, yes I did publish it. It's called Birchwood UK LIDAR and I'm always open to feedback from people who have played it. As a video game course it will play easy due to the accuracy and distances of the clubs however it's still a good challenge and it's already achieved handicap status.

Andy

Cool ive been playing pga tour mode. Its pretty good but you are out there by yourself so thay can get a bit zzz sometimes.   I ill load your course up with some ghost rounds and give it a go.
Created RCR Courses: 
Links at Lighthouse Sound
nicknamed "The Pebble Beach of the East"

Links at Gettysburg
golf digest 4.5/5 stars

War Admiral at GlenRiddle
2017 top 40 places to play in Maryland

Legends- Moorland Course
#37 Toughest Course in U.S.- Golf Digest
Americas top courses '03 & '09

Sandsaver

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« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2019, 11:22:57 AM »

Does it take a hell of a long time....? Yes. is it worth it? For 99.99% of people who may not notice then probably not but it's worth it for me and that's how I'll continue.

In my opinion if you are doing a LIDAR RCR 'properly' then it will probably take you longer than making a fantasy course if you're aiming to get it incredibly accurate.

Andy

I admire your determination to get your home course exactly right, and spending the time and effort to do it.  My only question is:  if you really are going to do it that way does it not restrict you to building courses you are extensively familiar with?  I just finished Crooked Stick GC Lidar, and although I have spent some time on that course I am by no means as familiar with it as you are with yours - I an obliged to use Google earth/maps and whatever published photos are available (some of which do not the reflect the course as it is since 2016).  I am about 90% done with Greenbriar Old White TPC, and I have no experience with that course, so I have to just use what I've got.  It still takes me at least as long as "built-from-scratch" course does.

jeffield

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« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2019, 12:33:20 PM »

Does it take a hell of a long time....? Yes. is it worth it? For 99.99% of people who may not notice then probably not but it's worth it for me and that's how I'll continue.

In my opinion if you are doing a LIDAR RCR 'properly' then it will probably take you longer than making a fantasy course if you're aiming to get it incredibly accurate.

Andy

I admire your determination to get your home course exactly right, and spending the time and effort to do it.  My only question is:  if you really are going to do it that way does it not restrict you to building courses you are extensively familiar with?  I just finished Crooked Stick GC Lidar, and although I have spent some time on that course I am by no means as familiar with it as you are with yours - I an obliged to use Google earth/maps and whatever published photos are available (some of which do not the reflect the course as it is since 2016).  I am about 90% done with Greenbriar Old White TPC, and I have no experience with that course, so I have to just use what I've got.  It still takes me at least as long as "built-from-scratch" course does.
  You guys are awesome.  I forgot i want to play that crooked stick and a greenbriar lidar would be great too!!! I want to jump into this lidar think now that i am high end pc .  Just havent.  I went thru the discouraged phase for about a year now after putting so much time into non lidar rcr's, getting decent reviews and then feeling they are not true enough by lidar standards.    I have some ideas  and want to start creating local maryland, pa and sc courses.  Just have to look into this lidar.
  Anyway thanks so much for your efforts and you guus are right. Take the lidar tool but really get into making each hole aestheticaly correct if you want something special
Created RCR Courses: 
Links at Lighthouse Sound
nicknamed "The Pebble Beach of the East"

Links at Gettysburg
golf digest 4.5/5 stars

War Admiral at GlenRiddle
2017 top 40 places to play in Maryland

Legends- Moorland Course
#37 Toughest Course in U.S.- Golf Digest
Americas top courses '03 & '09

Andyf

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« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2019, 12:36:21 PM »

Does it take a hell of a long time....? Yes. is it worth it? For 99.99% of people who may not notice then probably not but it's worth it for me and that's how I'll continue.

In my opinion if you are doing a LIDAR RCR 'properly' then it will probably take you longer than making a fantasy course if you're aiming to get it incredibly accurate.

Andy

I admire your determination to get your home course exactly right, and spending the time and effort to do it.  My only question is:  if you really are going to do it that way does it not restrict you to building courses you are extensively familiar with?  I just finished Crooked Stick GC Lidar, and although I have spent some time on that course I am by no means as familiar with it as you are with yours - I an obliged to use Google earth/maps and whatever published photos are available (some of which do not the reflect the course as it is since 2016).  I am about 90% done with Greenbriar Old White TPC, and I have no experience with that course, so I have to just use what I've got.  It still takes me at least as long as "built-from-scratch" course does.

It probably does restrict me in a way yes and I'm in no way saying that every course should be done that way because I fully understand that it is not for everyone and ultimately people want a course that plays somewhere near what the course does in real life and that is where LIDAR has made a big difference.

I am so far sticking to UK courses that are either local to me or I have played and so I do have a lot of reference data and there are flyovers and videos for most of the courses I am working on.

Maybe I'm taking it to an extreme level of OCD but it's just my way of doing it and I realise that it will take me a long time to get a course done to the standard that I set for myself. I've only just started using the designer so in time my opinion may well change and I'll start publishing courses every few days but for now I can't see that happening.

The main point is though that LIDAR has made a lot more courses accessible from a point of view of ground elevation data therefore whereas before people would have to rely on videos and photos alone it makes it a lot easier to carry out RCR's.

Andy

TaS

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« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2019, 04:44:59 AM »
2 things...

1) the lidar tree tool works very well if you have good data.  That should eliminate the need for all that measuring. 

2) you could do a front 9 and back 9 publish if you really want to go overboard with the manual planting. 

mthunt

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« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2019, 08:15:53 AM »
Are you guys spending 6 hours a hole planting? 120+ hours on a RCR with Lidar? That seems a bit crazy.
For me on my home course it took a lot longer than 6 hours per hole... but that's because I was matching the course up with 1000's of photos I had taken along with google Earth and confirming the LIDAR elevations

As an example for a single tree I would get the distance from 3 points on google maps to triangulate it and then draw those measure lines in the designer to give me the precise location. Then it's a case of finding the best fit in terms of the limited trees available within the designer and then scaling and rotating it to match the photos I had taken so that all the sightlines from various points in the course looked exactly like real life in terms of heights of trees from a distance etc. Now multiply that up by the 1000's of trees on my course and you'll see it can become very time consuming.

And that is just the trees. I did exactly the same with the houses and other buildings on the course. I spent hours flicking between the designer and google maps streetview to make sure the houses were orientated correctly and looked as similar as possible to the real life buildings.

And then there is the sculpting required to make the off course areas blend in with the LIDAR masked course. All of that takes time if you want to do it properly by matching it up with the elevation data from topographic maps.

Will all of the above be noticed by anyone who plays the course... I'm pretty certain that 99.9999% of people who have played it won't notice but fellow members of my course who have played it all say it is a really good representation of the course and that's why I did it.

Could I have just roughly planted trees and buildings, not checked anything and hit publish in a few hours then yes I could but I doubt I would have got the feedback I have on the course.

Yes, I ran out of plant meter in the end and would have liked to expand the off course areas even more which is why on my next courses I'm doing I've masked the course really tightly and I'm then sculpting the remainder of the area by hand to match the topographic maps and google maps in order to save enough plant meter to allow me to do the course exactly how I want it.

Does it take a hell of a long time....? Yes. is it worth it? For 99.99% of people who may not notice then probably not but it's worth it for me and that's how I'll continue.

In my opinion if you are doing a LIDAR RCR 'properly' then it will probably take you longer than making a fantasy course if you're aiming to get it incredibly accurate.

Andy

You should try peekthrough (I think that’s it) and overlay google earth over the hole and mark your trees and houses with measure tool.
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