has Lidar been good?

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Andyf

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« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2019, 08:57:23 AM »
Are you guys spending 6 hours a hole planting? 120+ hours on a RCR with Lidar? That seems a bit crazy.
For me on my home course it took a lot longer than 6 hours per hole... but that's because I was matching the course up with 1000's of photos I had taken along with google Earth and confirming the LIDAR elevations

As an example for a single tree I would get the distance from 3 points on google maps to triangulate it and then draw those measure lines in the designer to give me the precise location. Then it's a case of finding the best fit in terms of the limited trees available within the designer and then scaling and rotating it to match the photos I had taken so that all the sightlines from various points in the course looked exactly like real life in terms of heights of trees from a distance etc. Now multiply that up by the 1000's of trees on my course and you'll see it can become very time consuming.

And that is just the trees. I did exactly the same with the houses and other buildings on the course. I spent hours flicking between the designer and google maps streetview to make sure the houses were orientated correctly and looked as similar as possible to the real life buildings.

And then there is the sculpting required to make the off course areas blend in with the LIDAR masked course. All of that takes time if you want to do it properly by matching it up with the elevation data from topographic maps.

Will all of the above be noticed by anyone who plays the course... I'm pretty certain that 99.9999% of people who have played it won't notice but fellow members of my course who have played it all say it is a really good representation of the course and that's why I did it.

Could I have just roughly planted trees and buildings, not checked anything and hit publish in a few hours then yes I could but I doubt I would have got the feedback I have on the course.

Yes, I ran out of plant meter in the end and would have liked to expand the off course areas even more which is why on my next courses I'm doing I've masked the course really tightly and I'm then sculpting the remainder of the area by hand to match the topographic maps and google maps in order to save enough plant meter to allow me to do the course exactly how I want it.

Does it take a hell of a long time....? Yes. is it worth it? For 99.99% of people who may not notice then probably not but it's worth it for me and that's how I'll continue.

In my opinion if you are doing a LIDAR RCR 'properly' then it will probably take you longer than making a fantasy course if you're aiming to get it incredibly accurate.

Andy

You should try peekthrough (I think that’s it) and overlay google earth over the hole and mark your trees and houses with measure tool.
Yeah, I've found GhostIt after I completed my first course and that would have made things so much easier although even overlaying google earth is not perfect due to the offset from the camera angles compared to the LIDAR data etc.

Andy

TaS

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« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2019, 03:47:27 AM »
One other trick is to use markings in OSM.  I use it to define groves and sometimes certain prominent trees. Then, after importing, I delete in OSM so as not to pollute it. 

The whole lidar osm package is still amazing to me.  I would definitely be done with this program if it weren't for that.

RockManDan

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« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2019, 07:00:02 PM »
What course actually IS a good LiDAR course?  I haven’t found one yet.  I’ve seen a lot of people raving about Crooked Stick here on the forum so I gave it a play.  I do give the designer props for the housing areas around the course and the fact that some effort was put i with planting and decor.......  but that’s about it.  The course itself wasn’t anything great and extremely Vanilla in my opinion. There really wasn’t a lot of challenge to it and some holes (18 especially) were just a lumpy, bumpy mess.  I was really not impressed,
So tell me.....  NAME A GOOD LIDAR COURSE...... I’ll give it an honest shot.
I sure haven’t found one yet.
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Sandsaver

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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2019, 08:48:31 AM »
What course actually IS a good LiDAR course?  I haven’t found one yet.  I’ve seen a lot of people raving about Crooked Stick here on the forum so I gave it a play.  I do give the designer props for the housing areas around the course and the fact that some effort was put i with planting and decor.......  but that’s about it.  The course itself wasn’t anything great and extremely Vanilla in my opinion. There really wasn’t a lot of challenge to it and some holes (18 especially) were just a lumpy, bumpy mess.  I was really not impressed,
So tell me.....  NAME A GOOD LIDAR COURSE...... I’ll give it an honest shot.
I sure haven’t found one yet.

Dan, you have your opinions, and you are sticking to them - good on you.  Now that we all know what they are, why do you keep yelling them to everyone.  I feel all types of design in TGC2019 are worth doing.  You only think a certain kind are worthy.  Let's agree to disagree.  From now on, whenever you see the word "Lidar" in a post or topic title look away - nothing is going to change your mind.

Also, Crooked Stick is "Vanilla"?  Yes that may be true compared to courses from peoples imagination that would and could not exist in real life golf.  It is certainly not Pete Dyes BEST course, but it was chosen for many PGA and USGA tournaments.

Yeltzman

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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2019, 09:32:59 AM »
I think Dan who perfers the more fictional Course will enjoy Chad's Xmas present a lot more than the Lidar process.It all depends what you enjoy nobody right or wrong something for everyone in the tgc brand.

jeffield

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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2019, 09:39:25 AM »
ive struggled with the advancement into lidar not, because I don't like what it brings to the table but, moreso because sometimes people don't plant them out enough/ or there may not be enough plant meter leftover to give the look of what we've seen from some of the great pre-lidar courses.   but,  we have to get good at lidar.  its the way to go.  it makes the rcr courses more accurate and, allows us to recreate local courses the way they really are for everyone to enjoy.  I don't know how to use it but, I like what it brings.
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Sandsaver

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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2019, 09:53:59 AM »
I think Dan who perfers the more fictional Course will enjoy Chad's Xmas present a lot more than the Lidar process.It all depends what you enjoy nobody right or wrong something for everyone in the tgc brand.

I totally agree with you Yeltzman, and I tried to be as diplomatic as possible in my response to Dan.  My question is why does Dan feel it is necessary to keep banging this drum.  We all know his opinion and he is entitled to it, but he just keeps wanting to stir the pot. Why?

AndersNM

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« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2019, 09:57:35 AM »
What course actually IS a good LiDAR course?  I haven’t found one yet.  I’ve seen a lot of people raving about Crooked Stick here on the forum so I gave it a play.  I do give the designer props for the housing areas around the course and the fact that some effort was put i with planting and decor.......  but that’s about it.  The course itself wasn’t anything great and extremely Vanilla in my opinion. There really wasn’t a lot of challenge to it and some holes (18 especially) were just a lumpy, bumpy mess.  I was really not impressed,
So tell me.....  NAME A GOOD LIDAR COURSE...... I’ll give it an honest shot.
I sure haven’t found one yet.

Dan, you like fantasy courses and have said you don´t like real courses. That is perfectly fine, and there is none that is forcing you to play real courses. The question isn´t what course made with lidar data you will find good, but what real course you would consider good. The course that is ranked nr 1 in the world according to many are Cypress Point, and there is a very good recreation made with lidar data. You could try that, and if that is a course you don´t like, then real courses is not for you.

RockManDan

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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2019, 12:55:43 PM »
Hey, I was just asking a sincere question.  It’s been a while since LiDAR has been available so I figured that maybe there were some good courses by now.
I had read other people’s opinions on Crooked Stick and I tried it out and gave my honest opinion of it. Isn’t that what the forum is for?   I wasn’t just bashing it because it was made with LiDAR....  Though striving for realism, it came off as more “video gamey” than  a good fictional course or created non-LiDAR RCR course.  As I said, I did appreciate the effort with the areas surrounding the course..... but aside from some ”area dropped” grass patches, there really wasn’t much done to make the landscaping of the course itself look realistic.
Like I said... Vanilla and Video Gamey and those fairways on 18 look about a far from realistic as an emoji to a photograph.  Real Fairways are cut by lawnmowers.  No lawnmower on the planet would cut that.  It’s NOT AT ALL visually realistic.  That’s my opinion on Crooked Stick.  It is not an opinion on LiDAR in general, although it does nothing to change my opinion on it......

So, I will ask again....  NAME AN ACTUALLY GOOD LIDAR COURSE.  One which was done correctly, looks realistic AND polished.
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Ariel Atom

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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2019, 01:39:54 PM »
The landscaping of the course doesn't just have to Look realistic...in this  case it IS realistic because it IS the real course. Maybe go try Friars Head and see what you think (the pithy version). And you haven't even played Cypress Point, have you...

Look at it this way...which real courses (IRL) do you like? If the answer is none then you just don't like real golf courses, and that is that.

If you want to talk about real courses that you think are 'video gamey' let's also talk about how 4 Pines is so tricked up it wouldn't last more than a few days as a real course before going under.

If you want to try a course I made that was re-created as faithfully as possible using the available sources, try black rock cc (tour). Play default terrain conditions for the closest to IRL experience but ideal green speed is the 'fast' preset. Any pin is mine but 3 and 4 are personal favorites, 2 is the hardest and 1 the least fun (and second hardest). Green tees ideal for pro/master, black for beginner.

The environment is 98% accurate down to things like bunker depths, approximate tree shapes and heights, species, forest density, rock placement, wetlands areas behind 16 green and left of 4 tee shot that virtually no one playing the course will never notice, all double and triple checked against photos and google earth 3d ground view. Not to mention there is only one single instance of fairway or green shape that isn't an exact match for the real course to within +/- 1 yard (found after publish and it's covered by shadows), tee box sizes and shapes were all triple checked, bunker lip heights are within +/- 6 inches of IRL, and fairway/green transitions are perfect. There are a couple instances of data artifacts that I decided 40 hours dedicated to them was as good as I was going to do, but 'bumps' such as the little depression near the left side of #3 fairway landing zone and short / right portion of #5 fairway I confirmed as ' exist on the real course' and therefore were not removed. And let's not mention a couple hours I spent hitting specific shots over and over again to fine-tune the default terrain conditions to play just right.

P.S. That is from memory, as when you  spend 160-175hrs on a course (which is a conservative estimate), you get to know it pretty well.

P.P.S. http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/black-rock/black-rock-pg-ii/

A lot of people who take RCRs seriously have similar accuracy goals, even if technical execution isn't quite there yet. It certainly wasn't for me at first.

TL:DR...if you don't like the course itself, you just don't like this course. You weren't banned over at TGCT for no reason, as an obdurate pot-stirrer.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 01:47:34 PM by Ariel Atom »

RockManDan

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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2019, 02:23:49 PM »
I just played Psypress Point (L) and in my opinion....  That IS a good course.
The time was taken by the designer to make it visually realistic , to maximize the artistry of the terrain AND to make the course realistically playable (smoothing and contouring of elevation changes) and not just like a golf course template was dropped onto an overgrown minefield.
This is the problem with LiDAR courses.   Too many are just plop and drop.  Yeah it looks just like it, I’m done..... publish.
You can download all the specs and measurements you like and feed them into the most advanced 3D printer in the world and create a perfect copy of a Lamborghini.........  it will look great..... but it isn’t a Lamborghini.
99.9% of LiDAR courses fall into this category.  Cardboard copies with no heart and no soul.
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AndersNM

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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2019, 02:32:00 PM »
99.9% of LiDAR courses fall into this category.  Cardboard copies with no heart and no soul.

To be honest, you most probably have not played enough real courses made with lidar data to know anything about it.
If you want, you can also try one of my recreations; Bjaavann GK - either the member or the tour version. I can also recommend Mill Ride GC, and quite a lot of other very good recreations.

Sandsaver

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« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2019, 03:01:33 PM »
99.9% of LiDAR courses fall into this category.  Cardboard copies with no heart and no soul.

To be honest, you most probably have not played enough real courses made with lidar data to know anything about it.
If you want, you can also try one of my recreations; Bjaavann GK - either the member or the tour version. I can also recommend Mill Ride GC, and quite a lot of other very good recreations.

Why in the hell does or should anyone give a damn about RockManDan's opinion?  I don't - he is a one man band that will not shut the f**k up.


Why

AndersNM

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« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2019, 03:16:03 PM »
99.9% of LiDAR courses fall into this category.  Cardboard copies with no heart and no soul.

To be honest, you most probably have not played enough real courses made with lidar data to know anything about it.
If you want, you can also try one of my recreations; Bjaavann GK - either the member or the tour version. I can also recommend Mill Ride GC, and quite a lot of other very good recreations.

Why in the hell does or should anyone give a damn about RockManDan's opinion?  I don't - he is a one man band that will not shut the f**k up.


Why

You ask me? I don´t. But if he wants pointers to good recreations, he is welcome to it.

leslie.sangster

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« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2019, 03:16:29 PM »
I personally think fictional courses in this game all look to smooth and perfect, doesn’t stop me playing them though. I’ve also never played a course in the UK that has as many rocks as some designers put in their creations.


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