To the developers:

  • 38 Replies
  • 1718 Views

TheDenis1951

  • *
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
« on: January 06, 2020, 04:34:54 AM »
I'm hoping someone can pass these suggestions onto the game developers so we can have a better game in the next edition, because this one is garbage.
This game is broken. From the game physics to the golf physics to the course designs, it is broken. The swing mechanics need to be completely redone. The slow swing, very slow swing, fast swing and very fast swings need to be removed from the game, they are not even close to reality. Your theory of slow swings produce open club faces is wrong and fast swings causing closed faces is wrong. The speed of the swing alone does not affect the opening and closing of the face, and when they do they do not produce such drastic effects as on this game. In all reality, slower swings actually create a more accurate shot while losing some distance. What will cause an open face and a slight fade  on a slow swing is more related to the shaft stiffness and the type of grip you employ. Using a weak grip while swinging slow will produce a fade or sometimes a slice, depending on another factor, the swing plane. Since none of these things are addressed in the swing in the game here, then saying a slow swing will produce an open club face and send the ball 20-50 yards right and even sending it long is absurd. This needs to be eliminated from this game, or the other factors need to be introduced. And I know how you can do it. But first, the swing speed issue needs to be fixed. When you give a slow swing message on the swing meter, it is relative to what your developers consider a normal speed, not what is relative to the user's tendencies. So, there needs to be something to gauge the swing and determine fast or slow according to your average speed, not a pre-determined speed set by the developers.

I am a club fitter and know that every single golfer has a different swing. You people are setting this game up saying that every single player can operate the sticks on the controller the same speed. They cannot. The difference between a fast and slow swing on these controllers is indistinguishable, so you simply cannot adjust your swing because you end up over-correcting.
Now for the solution:

In this game what is needed is a "club fitting" mode where the player goes into a practice facility and actually swings some clubs so the program can take an average of the swing speed of a normal shot taken by how fast you operate the left or right sticks. Not everyone is the same. I get burned all the time because I have a set motion for my swing using the stick and it almost always ends up being slow speed by your standards. That is flawed logic. Also in this "club fitting" exercise, the normal swing path should be noted so that the program knows your normal swing path. In this game, like in real golf, if you have an inside out swing path, then you will produce a draw. The opposite on an outside in swing path. Since this game cannot show whether or not you employ a strong or weak grip, it should be assumed that if you have a draw swing, then you probably employ a strong grip, and the opposite for a fade swing. Of course a neutral grip for a straight swing path.
The other part of the "club fitting" should address the swing speed that you have. If you have a fast swing speed, then a stiffer shaft should be used. This will then bring the slow swing speed in the game into affect, since a slow swing with a stiff shaft will result in sending the ball to the right about 15-20 yards, but not the ridiculous 25-50 yards that you people now show. And, the other part you get wrong is doing the same thing for all clubs when slow swings for a short iron are the norm, thus the ball will not be sent way off course with a "slow" or "very slow" swing. It just doesn't work that way.

The other huge issue I see is at the end of the swing when a little hook or a slight deviation is made with the stick. This sends the ball way off in the direction of the little hook at the end of the swing. Sorry, but this should not affect the ball flight hardly any at all, since that should be at the end of the follow-through after the ball is struck.
So, the swing mechanics need to be completely done over, right now they are absurdly wrong.

And, all this is related to the lousy notion that we can only play with three different types of golf clubs, either beginner, pro, or master. That is the single most stupid idea in this screwed up game. Not all golf clubs are the same. Buying a bargain set off the rack might be your version of beginner clubs, but that still doesn't mean that all clubs will play the same. You need to employ some different options to give each set of clubs some of their own characteristics. Offer different shafts and different grips. As you progress in level, make more advanced clubs available because as you get better you make more money and you can afford the top tier clubs, and eliminate the beginner, pro, and master classes because that is just stupid. Drivers have moveable weights, adjustable lofts and lies, adjustable face planes where you can open and close the faces. And then you need to have different balls. That is a very important factor in golf. A cheap golf ball with a hard cover will not act like an expensive ball with a soft cover. A 2 piece ball will not act like a three piece ball or a four piece ball. This game lacks any spin on the ball because you do not have any variety in different types of balls. My advice is do some research and look at some sites that test balls and clubs and see how all the different types of balls and clubs play differently in carry and roll and biting on the greens. You want to make this game better? Do some research and put all these different aspects of the game into this golf game.

Now, on to the other problem of this game, and it is a big problem: The course designs.

The courses you people make up and designed look like they were designed by people who have never played golf before. They are atrocious. Most of them have too many monster par 4s in them (par 4s over 500 yards). This doesn't happen that often on a golf course, unless they are set up so that everyone can realistically have a chance to reach the green in regulation. I have seen ridiculously set up par 4s that are over 500 yards and uphill, making reaching them in regulation against a strong wind impossible. You need to be realistic here. The other issue is when you have a very long par 4 or a very long par 3 (over 200 yards) you need to allow for a long iron or hybrid shot to be able to roll and stop on the green within reason. I've seen some ridiculous greens that are sloped front to back and very small, making a long iron or hybrid approach nearly impossible to hold the green. If you make a long 200+ yard par three, make sure you have an adequate sized green to accommodate the roll, or at least have an approach area where you can land a shot and roll it on the green. This nonsense of having a par 3 or a monster par 4 with a hole 10 feet from the front edge of the green and guarded with a bunker on an upslope is unacceptable and you will never see any sane course designer create such a monstrosity. This game is supposed to be challenging, not close to impossible. The other issue concerning greens is some courses have about 80% of them that are crowned and sloped all the way around. Again, be realistic. And this leads to the biggest sin of all, hole placement on these greens. I've seen hole placements on yellow areas of the green. That is 100% wrong and against USGA guidelines. And, some hole are placed right on the edge of a very sharp drop-off at the edge of a green, so if you miss a put by even a foot, the ball is gone off the green. that is a no-no. You shouldn't be penalized for just missing a putt only by a foot. Here is the USGA regulations regarding hole placement:
"The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. Following are specific points:

    Study the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Know the length of the shot to the green and how it may be affected by the probable conditions for the day - that is, wind and other weather elements, conditions of the turf from which the shot will be played, and holding quality of the green.
    There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be located deeper in the green and further from its sides than should be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot. In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch. Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green.
    An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.

    There should be a balanced selection of hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, central, front and back positions. For example, avoid too many left positions with resulting premium on drawn or hooked shots.
    For a competition played over several days, the course should be kept in balance daily as to degree of difficulty. In a stroke competition, the first hole of the first round is as important as the last hole of the last round, and so the course should not be set up appreciably more difficult for any round - balanced treatment is the aim. An old concept of making the course progressively harder round after round is fallacious. One form of balanced daily treatment is to select six quite difficult, six which are moderately difficult and six which are relatively easy."


Another issue is the tournaments and the field of each, and the weather conditions. Every tournament usually has a few players that shoot exactly the same score, or at least withing + or - one stoke for every round. this is unrealistic. When I play a tournament, I usually have at least one round where I shoot either 3-5 strokes worse or better than the previous one. When I have a "bad" round, I know I cannot catch the leaders because they always shoot the same exact scores the entire tournament. You need to vary the scores a little, make it realistic and give someone a chance to catch up if you have a bad round. Granted, it occasionally happens that one player will dominate throughout, but more often than not, the players scores will vary 2 or three strokes every round and a lot of times it is dependent on weather and course conditions. Which brings me to the weather: Why is it that every other tournament is high winds? And why is the conditions the same ever single round of the tournament? It is very rare that a tournament will have high winds every round, unless it is on an ocean course like Pebble Beach or one over in the highlands. I've seen a lot of tournaments in real life that are calm all four rounds, and some that are medium all four rounds, but very few are high winds every single round. That is absurd. You need to change the conditions every round on a lot of courses, and high winds just do not occur as often as you have them in this game.

If you follow all these suggestions, this game will be considerably better and more true to life.
   

Cathalos1991

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2020, 04:58:40 AM »
TLDR

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Course Designer
- Old Head Golf Links
- Old Course @ Ballybunion
- The Emirates Golf Club
- The Celtic Manor Resort
- Wentworth
- Killeen Castle Golf Club
- Highgarden Golf Resort
- Druids Glen Golf Resort
- Cill Mhuire Na nGall
- Royal County Down
- Crans-sur-Sierre

Barrie53

  • *
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 48
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2020, 05:15:45 AM »
Hi
Very interesting reading, while I agree with some of your points I am at odds with others.
I have found The  slow swing syndrome sometimes directly relates to the Frame Rate on less powerful PC and low spec graphic cards. Slow swing can also be attributed to the course being played depending on the amount of detail.
What you are suggesting is as close to real life golf without getting your clubs or shoes muddy. If this GAME was a full blown simulator then your comments may be justified, but it is only a game. Don’t get me wrong even as a game there are many things that could be improved. One improvement would be to allow the community to freely mod and customise the game,but the developers are afraid of licence infringement. So the game has become stale and if it was not for the community continually adding to vast variety of courses I would have stopped playing along time ago.
You were also critical about the courses not being true to life, I contest that observation. With Chads Tools it is now possible with LIDAR data to make the course as real as possible with correct green slopes and fairway elevations, also correct bunker positions.
Don’t forget these course are made by members of the community not real life Course Architects.


leslie.sangster

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2020, 07:35:49 AM »
I totally agree with his point about setting your own tempo as we don’t all move the stick the same speed, I’m finding master clubs to tight for my normal tempo and just about right for the pro clubs. I didn’t think about his swing line but that’s a good point as well.
As far as courses are concerned most of these courses are made by amateurs who maybe have no course design experience before this game came out, I do agree with his point about to many par 4’s over 500 yds or Par5’s over 600 especially if they play uphill.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yeltzman

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5867
    • http://www.twitter.com/yeltzy
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2020, 09:21:40 AM »
Stick to Real courses TheDenis1951 if you search enough plenty of great real courses to play a better selection in this game than ever.

i think you make very fair points about career mode and the swing.

Sandsaver

  • *
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • If I had anything better to do I would be doing it
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2020, 09:44:39 AM »
I'm hoping someone can pass these suggestions onto the game developers so we can have a better game in the next edition, because this one is garbage.


Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

stan_solo

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3639
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2020, 10:23:27 AM »
Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

                                             :D

AndersNM

  • *
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 146
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2020, 12:14:19 PM »
Stick to Real courses TheDenis1951 if you search enough plenty of great real courses to play a better selection in this game than ever.

i think you make very fair points about career mode and the swing.

The problem is that you are not able to choose only real courses in the PGA/career mode of the game. One can argue that the selection of fantasy courses that HB decided to have official is bad - but there should be an option to customize what courses you want, that would have solved the issue. HB should take a lesson in abandoning fantasy courses for the career mode anyway in future iterations of the game, but also include customization for the player.

HB_ShaunW

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1259
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2020, 01:18:09 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Denis.

less than bread

  • *
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2020, 01:52:59 PM »
I agree the swing mechanics in the game could be better/more realistic but HB has to consider the wide audience that plays TGC. What makes sense for golf enthusiasts like us, might put off the more casual crowd that plays this game.
TGC 2019 Courses:
Scorched Horizon Golf Club (2020 BB King Memorial Host)
Mighty Oak Lodge & Ranch
Kathmandu Valley Golf Club

--------------------------------------------------------------

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet."
-Abraham Lincoln

RockManDan

  • *
  • GroupMember
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3350
  • Without Great Courses There Can Be No Great Golf
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2020, 02:33:53 PM »
It sounds like TheDenis needs to design us some courses being he is such The Expert.......
i9 9900k 8 Core 5.O GHz. 
Asus ROG STRIX Z390 E Gaming.
64 GB DDR4 3600 RAM
2X Samsung 970 EVO 500 GB m2 RAID level 0
EVGA GTX 1080 SC. Windows 10 64 Bit
Rosewill Hive 1000W PSU

bob5453

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1786
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2020, 02:56:52 PM »
It sounds like TheDenis needs to design us some courses being he is such The Expert.......

He could have created a hole in the time it took him to type that post. :)
My TGC 2019 courses
Enchanted Mountain 2019
Roy Rogers Happy Trails 2019
Gilligan's Island Par 3 2019
The Big Valley 2019

*** Courses all have crowds added ***

Yeltzman

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5867
    • http://www.twitter.com/yeltzy
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2020, 03:12:37 PM »
Stick to Real courses TheDenis1951 if you search enough plenty of great real courses to play a better selection in this game than ever.

i think you make very fair points about career mode and the swing.

The problem is that you are not able to choose only real courses in the PGA/career mode of the game. One can argue that the selection of fantasy courses that HB decided to have official is bad - but there should be an option to customize what courses you want, that would have solved the issue. HB should take a lesson in abandoning fantasy courses for the career mode anyway in future iterations of the game, but also include customization for the player.

You can play career mode with just the real courses and withdraw from the other events ( not much of a career mode) .I agree with you a PGA tour game should be real courses but i suppose time was against HB designing the real courses.The ones they designed a couple of them was out of date by release date.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 03:17:05 PM by Yeltzman »

HB_ShaunW

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1259
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2020, 03:56:56 PM »
There is a lot that goes into building out a calendar of events to mimic a PGA TOUR Schedule. Not only the time to assemble the courses but all of the unique assets that go into that and licensing discussions and reviews. It's not a short timeline and I imagine most of you who build courses on your time understand that. 6 for launch was what was afforded with the timeline and budget of the project. Filling out the event schedule with fictional courses with a nod to some of the best course designers, felt like a great solution to the impossible task of a 52 event schedule with licensed courses. The quality of the courses whether fictional or licensed are subjective as well. The number of plays through PGA TOUR Career, these courses outside that mode, and their ratings suggest that there is a largely satisfied group of players. Of course we would have liked to deliver more content but given the restrictions are pleased with the results.

AndersNM

  • *
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 146
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2020, 04:18:53 PM »
Stick to Real courses TheDenis1951 if you search enough plenty of great real courses to play a better selection in this game than ever.

i think you make very fair points about career mode and the swing.

The problem is that you are not able to choose only real courses in the PGA/career mode of the game. One can argue that the selection of fantasy courses that HB decided to have official is bad - but there should be an option to customize what courses you want, that would have solved the issue. HB should take a lesson in abandoning fantasy courses for the career mode anyway in future iterations of the game, but also include customization for the player.

You can play career mode with just the real courses and withdraw from the other events ( not much of a career mode) .I agree with you a PGA tour game should be real courses but i suppose time was against HB designing the real courses.The ones they designed a couple of them was out of date by release date.

I do not find it satisfactory to skip events - and that means most of the events to avoid fantasy courses. I have full understanding for HB to include fantasy courses as official courses to fill the schedule for this game. For future games however, there should be ample of courses to have only real courses imho. My complaint is the lack of customization for the player. And there is no excuse for this lack. For those that like fantasy, they could fill their schedule with fantasy courses to their pleasing from the large library of courses in the game - and for those of us that wants real courses, we could do likewise. But no, this is not an option - and that means that for me - this mode is not good at all. And I do think that most players would appreciate an opportunity to customize the career mode to their liking. For those that does´t care or want to spend time to customize, they have the stock career that the game provides.

As the societies is set up in the game, this should have been an easy option to include in the career mode.

I would also like an expanded career mode with amateur tours etc below the Korn Ferry tour. And also ha full Korn Ferry tour and not a 6 week schedule as the web.com tour was. For future game iteration that is.

 

space-cash