Approach shot roll - Way too much

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HB_LorinB

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« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2015, 01:38:16 PM »
It was nice to wakeup today and see some responses from Lorin about some of the feature enhancement threads/comments -

-- But alas, the physics topics continue to be left to die.  (really frustrating)

I do not personally  have answers to these questions and the team has been on vacation for the holidays.  As people begin to return over the next couple of weeks we can address the questions more directly.

ajl5313

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« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2015, 01:40:55 PM »
It was nice to wakeup today and see some responses from Lorin about some of the feature enhancement threads/comments -

-- But alas, the physics topics continue to be left to die.  (really frustrating)

I do not personally  have answers to these questions and the team has been on vacation for the holidays.  As people begin to return over the next couple of weeks we can address the questions more directly.

Thank you

Grizzblue

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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2015, 03:25:59 PM »
I'm really glad I found this thread, as I was going to crate one on it highlighting this problem.

I really think that this is the only real black mark in the gameplay. It is a significant one at that.

I think Pubknigh said it perfectly in the above post. I think that analysis is dead on and something should be done to curb this because it really does take away from a great golf sim. Most greens in the game are all but impossible to approach effectively or realistically due to the this issue unless you are within 40 yards and can select the "flop" shot with a wedge.


I think a very easy fix is and option (maybe using the X button on XB1) to select some sort of backpin on any club. Now obviously a 3 wood isn't going to be able to generate the same 'bite' that a 8 iron would, but in real golf watching real pros backspin can be generated on tough approach shots. Probably selecting this would cause the club to lose a bit of distance, as seems to be the case in real golf. According to the official update page, it seems that a career mode is going to be added in the future. With that said, along with developing power on a character, spin could be another stat that players could develop as well. In great golf, different golfers are better at generating this spin and can cause more 'bite' or with shorter clubs it is common to see golfers be able to back the ball up after hitting the green. A solution similar to this would make the game much more realistic and much more enjoyable, because as of right now this aspect of the game feels very broken for the most part.


It is disappointing that I do not see any planned changes to this area scheduled, or even mentioned. Hopefully we can get some Mod feedback on this.

FRSTDWN

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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2015, 04:02:02 PM »
I kinda think this is why the flop shot is so easy to do. They had to give us something to hold the greens 50 yards in. IMOP make the greens a little softer and make the flop shot harder and you have a good balance.

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Grizzblue

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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2015, 05:28:40 PM »
I kinda think this is why the flop shot is so easy to do. They had to give us something to hold the greens 50 yards in. IMOP make the greens a little softer and make the flop shot harder and you have a good balance.

True, but more approach options are needed with clubs other than wedges. Everything else will run over to the back of the green on 90% of the greens in this game. Overlooking and not including backspin is a bit mind boggling for a golf sim. I understand you can loft shots more, but that is not the same as hitting a shot with backspin on it.

ajl5313

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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2015, 11:29:40 PM »
I kinda think this is why the flop shot is so easy to do. They had to give us something to hold the greens 50 yards in. IMOP make the greens a little softer and make the flop shot harder and you have a good balance.

True, but more approach options are needed with clubs other than wedges. Everything else will run over to the back of the green on 90% of the greens in this game. Overlooking and not including backspin is a bit mind boggling for a golf sim. I understand you can loft shots more, but that is not the same as hitting a shot with backspin on it.

Yeah - This issue is extremely frustrating as it makes the game tedious to play at times.  Some courses, seemingly no matter what you do, you're always just off the green and having to chip (in a LOT of scenarios where the green should be getting held by the approach shot)

HB_LorinB

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« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2015, 06:35:54 AM »
So a couple of responses to the last four posts (the ones posted yesterday):

First, let me welcome you to the forums Grizzblue!  Make yourself at home...there is a good group of people here. 

Now, as for things like a backspin button - that is not something you will ever see in The Golf Club.  You can already generate backspin, however, which does shorten distance.  You do this by using the shot modification tool and adding loft to your club (just like in real life). To add backspin, hold the left trigger and increase your loft.

Another thing you won't see in TGC is golfers developing better power or accuracy or spin control.  We want people to get better at these things by actually practicing and getting better themselves, not by making their avatar better.  This is a fundamental design pillar of TGC and is a departure from recent video golf offerings.  But it is something we believe in.   

As for the issue with holding greens, that is one of course design.  Greens can be made very receptive or like ice depending on how the course designer chooses to make them.  The setting is there in the course designer. 

Now I am certainly not saying there are not things to improve in TGC...but I did want to chime in on these subjects. 


UrsusArctos

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« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2015, 10:20:07 AM »
Sorry, Loring, you are right

Now, as for things like a backspin button - that is not something you will ever see in The Golf Club.

up to here. But ...


You can already generate backspin, however, which does shorten distance.  You do this by using the shot modification tool and adding loft to your club (just like in real life). To add backspin, hold the left trigger and increase your loft.

... this is simply wrong. Changing the loft affects mainly the shots length and allmost does not generate any reaction on the balls spin. It should have about 1/3rd of the effect it has no to the shots lenght and about 3 times as much on the spin.


Another thing you won't see in TGC is golfers developing better power or accuracy or spin control.  We want people to get better at these things by actually practicing and getting better themselves, not by making their avatar better.  This is a fundamental design pillar of TGC and is a departure from recent video golf offerings.  But it is something we believe in.   

And this is perfect this way, as there is no difference in the physics for balls played by beginners or top professionals. It's exactly the same for both. All that makes the difference is practice and skill.


As for the issue with holding greens, that is one of course design.  Greens can be made very receptive or like ice depending on how the course designer chooses to make them.  The setting is there in the course designer. 

Do you seriously expect course designers to compensate for phyical bugs in the balls behaviour?
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ajl5313

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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2015, 11:54:47 AM »
Every time I use the loft adjustment to generate spin, it seems to require huge amounts of distance loss to actually *get* any backspin.

Just not realistic enough.

McBogga

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« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2015, 11:56:24 AM »
Lorin, it would be nice to hear some input on the core physics issue as well as its been up in number of threads and we are a small, but persistent, group of (mostly it seems) low handicappers and students of golf that feel its a bit off. Sure you can "design" it away to a degree when building a course, but even at the soft and fast settings in no wind there is some forward momentum on a 7-iron approach whereas in real life for a golfer with the swingspeed of Mr. HB it feels like it should zip back a bit.

Also don't quite agree on the spin comment, at least for the short game and from a real golf standpoint. In real life you do have one more variable to play with - angle of attack. Spin is decided by "spin loft" to use the trackman term - Applied loft at impact minus angle of attack. So a lobwege delivered with 40deg loft at an -10deg angle of attack will spin a lot more (and launch lower) than one delivered with same loft at 0deg. Generally it it easiest to get these effects in real life by playing with shaft lean and ball position.

Another thing which is a bit off is the loft up mechanic for the longer irons. You just cannot "loft up" a mid or long iron anywhere near the levels we do in game without introducing some slice spin. This has led to that clubbing down and lofting up is a better way to hold greens if designer chose to make them concrete. A "lofted" 3I will hold a green better than a 4I in game, which is something you would never think of doing in real life.

TGC is a game, and in terms of game mechanics the above may be too complex and alienate a large part of the player base. But maybe you have a large enough number of people interested in leveling up the difficulty and degree of simulation to make it worthwhile to do something. I for sure would pay to see the above tweaks (together with some more like tighter cone on drives and flyers from rough) added to the swing and shot mechanics in a "pro"-mode. You already must have a very solid ball flight calculation based on ball direction and spin if the ProTee guys are happy, or is ProTee doing all that ball-flight math in the simulator version?

This is already the closest anyone has ever come to the feel of real golf in a video game in my opinion, just a small push needed to put it in a complete league of its own.

Edit: Didnt see the other replies, so this one may have been a bit doubling up.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 12:01:55 PM by McBogga »

Pubknight

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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2015, 12:56:06 PM »

As for the issue with holding greens, that is one of course design.  Greens can be made very receptive or like ice depending on how the course designer chooses to make them.  The setting is there in the course designer. 

Now I am certainly not saying there are not things to improve in TGC...but I did want to chime in on these subjects.

Agreed that course design is a factor, but even with well designed courses approach spin/stop is still an issue.
Really simple example:
- In real life a 7 iron approach shot for me will hit once, bounce forward and then come to an almost complete stop... maybe a few inches of forward roll out, maybe a few inches of backspin suck back.  But it's pop and stop.
- Since my in course character has a +6 handicap, let's assume he's a decent player that knows how to make proper contact to create that same situation.
- I've never seen pop and stop, or slight pop and roll back with anything other than a wedge.  The final motion of every single non-wedge approach is a roll forwards.  (Setting aside green contours)
- In game, what you have to do is select more club than necessary, and loft it up so it's angle of approach is as close to straight down as you can get.  While that does succeed in stopping the ball, it's 'faking' it

That the ProTee folks are not having this issue says an awful lot to isolating it.
I really think it's either simply a backspin issue (not enough of it), or something is happening on the collision physics where the first bounce is doing something whacky to the backspin that is there.  But if the latter, the ProTee guys would see the same thing.
So I'm really thinking it's backspin.
The simulators are picking up the 'real' backspin, and their balls stop properly.
The 'non-simulation' golfers amongst us are tied to the engine backspin, and rolling off greens where we wouldn't expect to.

would *love* to see backspin numbers produced by ProTee compared to backspin numbers produced by the game engine, and see how they compare.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 01:00:58 PM by Pubknight »

Coda1850

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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2015, 01:33:43 PM »
I think what this thread is suggesting is we need "maximum backspin".
We had it once & want it again.  Could you have it ready for release in about 2 months?

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FRSTDWN

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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2015, 02:11:50 PM »
So a couple of responses to the last four posts (the ones posted yesterday):

First, let me welcome you to the forums Grizzblue!  Make yourself at home...there is a good group of people here. 

Now, as for things like a backspin button - that is not something you will ever see in The Golf Club.  You can already generate backspin, however, which does shorten distance.  You do this by using the shot modification tool and adding loft to your club (just like in real life). To add backspin, hold the left trigger and increase your loft.

Another thing you won't see in TGC is golfers developing better power or accuracy or spin control.  We want people to get better at these things by actually practicing and getting better themselves, not by making their avatar better.  This is a fundamental design pillar of TGC and is a departure from recent video golf offerings.  But it is something we believe in.   

As for the issue with holding greens, that is one of course design.  Greens can be made very receptive or like ice depending on how the course designer chooses to make them.  The setting is there in the course designer. 

Now I am certainly not saying there are not things to improve in TGC...but I did want to chime in on these subjects.

Well if it is a course design thing then can you tell me a course that has softer greens? I would like to try it. Every course I have played the greens seems to act the same on approach shots.

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AdamV HB

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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2015, 02:57:13 PM »
Just to clear things up.  Lofting up in our game is increasing the dynamic loft (a trackman term that refers to the effective loft that the ball sees on impact, not the static loft stamped on the club) which will indeed increase the amount of backspin you get as Lorin points out.

We are discussing a couple things here. One, we'd like to separate the firmness setting into two separate settings.  One for the greens, and one for the fairways.  Two, we are having a look at the spin lost on the bounce for some of irons.


ajl5313

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« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2015, 03:33:34 PM »
Adam: Just so all are clear here, is the official HB position that the current ball physics pertaining to spin on the ball (this thread) are correct?


 

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