[ADX321]

B. The water holes have to be at the lowest point, but what if they are at near the highest point of the golf course in RL, then what? What do you do with the holes climbing towards the water hole, or lowering away from it?

You are absolutely right. This is a major problem if trying to make a 100% accurate RCR.

My personal opinion is: if a player plays your course, and they choose to focus on the fact that the elevation in certain spots on the course aren't spot on, as opposed to focusing on the designer nailed the course in pretty much every other aspect, all I can say is "seriously? that's what your gripe is?" A designer spent dozens/hundreds of hours on this course, having it nearly perfect, and the elevation on a certain hole is off, and that's your big issue?

Our game has certain limitations. Anyone who has spent 1 hour in the GNCD should be able to recognize that. Everyone under the sun knows the issue with the water table, and if they can't get past that, screw them, IMO, as long as you do a great job on the rest of the course, on the matters that are in your control.

Another example, Countryside has no coniferous trees, can't remember if Harvest does or not. To anyone who has made an RCR in Countryside & possibly Harvest,  does that course you re-created really have no coniferous trees? If they do have coniferous, you didn't completely do it right. Case in point, FriendBomber RCRed Sawgrass, and it looks incredible. It has no pine trees. Who in their right mind can criticize the job he did b/c of the trees?  Who can say a nearly perfect Countryside course is no good for not having Coniferous trees?
My point to all this is, we know what the GNCD allows us/doesn't allow us to do. If anyone is going to be a stickler on tree types or elevations in spots, their opinion isn't worth anything anyways.

I agree somewhat

but....

Bethpage Black is completely about the topography.  15 is called "cardiac hill" for a reason.  It's a 35-40 degree angle 100 yard climb to the green.  Many locals actually skip it and 16 and wait on their group to get back to 17 tee and rejoin em.

And this is where RCR guys, who do indeed put forth amazing effort for our benefit more often than not can make a difference. 

If you were only relying on pics and internet type info you'd see this hill

and think "ahh a gentle hill"  That gentle hill is so steep that the caddies provided by Bethpage don't climb it.  They hand the player a wedge, a putter, and their driver for the next tee shot coming back down the hill.  So when someone goes to the detail guys like boomboom do, and people like me who play this course every summer really appreciate the detail

So the black without the right elevation really isn't the black

[BoomBoom]

Ok so I have essentially started this over, armed with Google earth pro, WGT, I had done 11 holes, they were brought back flat again and Up to this point today up to the 5th green completely re-sculpted. Hole 8 now sits flat elevated almost to the highest point on the golf course. Each and every spot on this course will be absolutely true to the RL Elevations. If green 12 sits 5 feet above green 5, even though it's hidden by trees, green 12 will surely sit 5 feet above in my RCR as well.

I fully intend on making this the most accurate RCR to date ever at TGC. There will be only 2 differences from real, the trees, and the fact the pond will be replaced with a well planted hole in the ground marked as OB. The 9th tee will absolutely sit at the correct height, the correct place behind the 8th green. Everything about this will be as real as possible right down to the finest of details.

I'm raising the bar here folks.

From here on in whenever I see water on an RCR, I will know, it's not a true RCR.

Exciting!  I love reading details like this.

Curious how you are able to dial in elevations and know exactly if a particular green is 5 feet above another, just trial & error with the flatten/raise brush and info from the distance tool?

I use the little box telling me the elevation info and do the required math. It's tedious, time consuming but worth it. I can do precise to the detail as well, If I want a 14 foot 3inch bunker, it's absolutely possible. If I want the 12th tee to sit precisely 5 feet higher then the 7th tee, I will make it such. There is absolutely no reason that this cannot be accomplished and accurate within inches.

May as well not do this half arsed for the sake of having water in a pond. They don't give me water, I don't give them water, just that simple. That's the decision I have made. As someone said, maybe one day I will be able to place water anywhere, and I will simply plop in some water and re-publish.

All the info is there for these RCR's to be accurate up to the point of a few scant limitations.

I'm not going to get beat up anymore for missing a green break, and let the realists move on to much riper candidates.

Obviously theres mounting pressure and the expected standards are changing, I may as well get ahead of this curve by setting the bar as high as it can go.

[ADX321]

Ok so I have essentially started this over, armed with Google earth pro, WGT, I had done 11 holes, they were brought back flat again and Up to this point today up to the 5th green completely re-sculpted. Hole 8 now sits flat elevated almost to the highest point on the golf course. Each and every spot on this course will be absolutely true to the RL Elevations. If green 12 sits 5 feet above green 5, even though it's hidden by trees, green 12 will surely sit 5 feet above in my RCR as well.

I fully intend on making this the most accurate RCR to date ever at TGC. There will be only 2 differences from real, the trees, and the fact the pond will be replaced with a well planted hole in the ground marked as OB. The 9th tee will absolutely sit at the correct height, the correct place behind the 8th green. Everything about this will be as real as possible right down to the finest of details.

I'm raising the bar here folks.

From here on in whenever I see water on an RCR, I will know, it's not a true RCR.

Exciting!  I love reading details like this.

Curious how you are able to dial in elevations and know exactly if a particular green is 5 feet above another, just trial & error with the flatten/raise brush and info from the distance tool?

I use the little box telling me the elevation info and do the required math. It's tedious, time consuming but worth it. I can do precise to the detail as well, If I want a 14 foot 3inch bunker, it's absolutely possible. If I want the 12th tee to sit precisely 5 feet higher then the 7th tee, I will make it such. There is absolutely no reason that this cannot be accomplished and accurate within inches.

May as well not do this half arsed for the sake of having water in a pond. They don't give me water, I don't give them water, just that simple. That's the decision I have made. As someone said, maybe one day I will be able to place water anywhere, and I will simply plop in some water and re-publish.

All the info is there for these RCR's to be accurate up to the point of a few scant limitations.

I'm not going to get beat up anymore for missing a green break, and let the realists move on to much riper candidates.

Obviously theres mounting pressure and the expected standards are changing, I may as well get ahead of this curve by setting the bar as high as it can go.

If it helps - the greens are pretty flat except 3 and 15.  The front of 15 might not even be legal lol

[McBogga]

It's in Stracka so if anything can be done to an inch it's the greens... And they are also what matters the most for playability and authenticity as driving is an afterthought.

15th has 60 inches drop back to front. Left edge and much of front left is red slope. Plenty of the other greens drop 35 inches plus... Nasty false front on 11. Couple of greens with decent back-stops. 20 inch+ tier on 17.

They are not crazy by any means other than normal TGC standard....


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[BoomBoom]

It's in Stracka so if anything can be done to an inch it's the greens... And they are also what matters the most for playability and authenticity as driving is an afterthought.

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Not sure we are seeing eye to eye on that. Have you ever tried using the tools to get that level of accuracy to the inch on the greens? So someone at 45 feet from the pin in a circle the breaks are expected to be within an inch from all directions. If you can do that with these tools all the power to you. But I suspect you have only rudimentary knowledge of the tools at best.

If you think your app is going to be useful playing a video game, I think your expectations are to high. Not sure how a 4 inch break compared to a 2 inch break effects the playability of the course either.

I'm telling you here now, to the inch, is not possible, not by me anyway, even armed with the knowledge, its the ability that's lacking.

New 8, just for you ADX. And just so you know, I recall having some pretty wicked putts on 1. 

[McBogga]

Didn't say it was easy and the game physics are slightly off (ball too heavy it seems like) so some trade offs must be made. So you are correct - can't be done to an inch. Didn't expect that to be taken literally...

The important point is that if greens are not close to the real ones and play the same the course will play significantly different. Miss or overdo the tier on 17 or do the general tilt the wrong way and it's not even  close to the same hole. Make 15 too flat or miss the pinnable plateu on the right where balls seem to feed too and again it's a different golf hole...



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[BoomBoom]

Finally got 9 done. Trying to get a 14 foot tall bunker to look like it was not defying gravity was a beast. 

I also had to go back a re-do 5. blackaces13 over on TGCT made a comment about 5 that made me go back and re-check. I had somehow messed up the positioning of the bunker and had only a 259 carry over the bunker.  It should be 269. The hole was good, so I had to move the bunker to it's proper spot rather than just move the tee back 10 yards as it would of messed up the hole. In the end I just re-done the hole. Re-doing the hole completely changes the hole now and it's much more accurate to RL so it should be the beast it's meant to be now.

Hole 9 shot of the bunker and golfer to give some idea of what you will face on 9.



I'm not looking forward to 10 and 11 again, it took me 8 hours to sculpt those bunkers, only to have to flatten them again to raise the entire area.

[BoomBoom]

Ok question about 15.

I seen someone say it's 100 yard climb to the green. that's 300 feet. My data is showing its 45 feet from fairway near green to green. I'll give WGT a try later and see what it says, but is 300 feet accurate?

[ADX321]

It's a steep climb but it's not 100 - If I said that it would have been because it feels so long due to how steep it is

The easy way to tell this for you would be to go to google maps, look at the terrain view, zoom in and then right click and do measure distance.

It's 30-35 yards depending on where you measure on green/fw

[BoomBoom]

It's a steep climb but it's not 100 - If I said that it would have been because it feels so long due to how steep it is

The easy way to tell this for you would be to go to google maps, look at the terrain view, zoom in and then right click and do measure distance.

It's 30-35 yards depending on where you measure on green/fw

I actually said 45 feet, but all i'm getting from google maps pro is 35 feet of elevation from the low point of the fairway to the green. Just checked this with WGT, (I'm getting good at hitting the dinger with all starters, LOL) it shows 35 feet as well. I assume if the 2 are saying the same thing, it's right.

ADX, any idea why there is a little green behind the 10 back tee and left of the 7th fairway?

[TeeJay0218]

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/bethpageblack/aerial.htm?hole=1&next=overview.htm%231

[ks-man]

ADX, any idea why there is a little green behind the 10 back tee and left of the 7th fairway?

Looks like a practice green.  Possibly there if things back up after the turn.  Perhaps for all those brown bag lunches?

[ADX321]

just a bit of sod farm action there

[BoomBoom]

just a bit of sod farm action there

Pretty much what I figured, odd place for it though, but I plopped it in there anyway.

OK, for those that are following along, I finally have caught back up and I'm a little ahead of where I was before I blew it all up. Just starting work on 13. I'm glad I re-did this one now, the views hole to hole and many holes ahead are far more accurate and it really allows for the experience of Bethpage. Because of what I have done, I have plenty of room for all the various up and down elevations as well.

By really focussing in on precise elevations and carry distances no tricks will be required here.  Some of these holes in the wind are going to be treacherous and challenging. I started to think today on conditions and medium medium firmness will be sufficient enough challenge for the 2009 US open distances. Presently I see no need for this to be toughened up further from real. This is such a classic design and I hope to do it justice. Some of these bunkers are bunkers, and true hazards to be avoided.

I'm still shooting for the most accurate RCR ever done here to date, I'm happy to report, so far so good. Some of these holes are instantly and completely recognizable to real. Even views of holes 6 ahead are so close to real it shocks me and I'm building this thing. I'm a little concerned about the object limit and have planted nothing but trees and it is rapidly filling up. I need to save enough room for the clubhouse. I doubt I will have enough room for the cart paths, but I will worry about those as a dead last thing to do. I started deleting much of the heavy rough to make use of the auto generated planting material. Hopefully that will be sufficient to get everything in there.

[ADX321]

There are no cart paths (or carts allowed) - if you're seeing any concrete that's a road for utility vehicles.

On Mondays when the course is closed and they work on ahole there about about 75 people and 20-30 vehicles - they all attack that hole then move on to the next.  It's really quite amazing.

The Maintenance budget for the Black is out of this world.

The funny thing about the property... people will get confused at this polo area that's off the blue course and end up driving on what they think is a road but is really a wide cart path - we had a lady pull up next to us as we were teeing off asking for directions lol

"I think I'm lost" "yeah you are" lol