Uphill/Downhill Slope not Affecting Shots

  • 8 Replies
  • 3141 Views

Oblong

  • *
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
« on: February 06, 2015, 12:37:17 PM »
I know this subject has come up before though I flipped through a few pages here and couldn't find the subject addressed.

We know the game accounts for sidehill lies for approach shots but not uphill/downhill lies which would have an effect on distance and spin (which would affect rollout).   Is this a conscious decision by HBS to not include this?  Did they think players wouldn't understand and/or it made shots too difficult?

If not, it would seem to be a very easy thing to implement since there is already data being used to affect sidehill lies, we are just talking about taking into account another axis.  Seems to be a pretty big thing to neglect when trying to come across as a golf simulation, no?

UrsusArctos

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2187
  • Golf-Teacher EGTF
    • GrizzlyGolfAcademy
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2015, 03:29:28 PM »
This is something that has been requested since Early Access V0.1 by many players and many times.
irl adjusting your setup and clubselection to up-/downhill lies is a crucial part of the game. Players having problems to hit the ball properly tend to ignore the balls lie and even get more problems the hit the ball properly because of not taking the balls lie into account. And "The cat hunts its tail"... ;)
Implementation would require 2 parts, a easy and a hard one.
The easy: dynamic loft = club's loft + angle of attack + lie angles component.
The hard: adjust avatar's grafics and setup posture.
Chris
Steam: UrsinaArctica
Courses released: some ....

McBogga

  • *
  • GroupMember
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4793
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2015, 08:20:59 PM »
I guess the reasoning is that since it is hard to judge and HB does not want more HUD elements or shot affecting factors they do not want to do it...

As with most things relating to realism and game mechanics this is left unanswered until there is a huge momentum for it in the forum. Right now we are a quite small group pushing this. Problem is most people do not seem to care and HB are very happy with the somewhat simplistic representation of golf they have built. They should be, but adding on realism would in my mind put the game in a complete league of its own.

UrsusArctos

  • *
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2187
  • Golf-Teacher EGTF
    • GrizzlyGolfAcademy
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2015, 02:56:58 AM »
Well...
its a crucial part of the basic physics....

And if someone has problems hitting the ball and therefor ignores the lie of the ball, his gonna have even more problems hitting the ball by ignoring the balls lies. "Enjoy your 'tail-meal', cat".  ;)

For estimating the ball's lie. Its not harder then to estimate its side-hill component as it is currently but on the other hand, it would be a "for free" possibility to harden the game and come back to "Amateur-Golf" as its designed to be. Sacrifying propre ball physics to harden the game was the much harder step, but as taken immediately. Shooting <= -20 scores is ridiculous for a Pro-Sim but should not be for an amateur level sim game? c'mon ... -> This even can't be called arcade anymore, its way beyond that. (* my personal opinion, without attacking or offending anyone. I still love it as it is, I'm just talking about what it could be. *)

And please do not even think about giving more HUD info. In contrary remove it to make the player "feel" the game and base on estimates as irl! The only acceptable exception imho is the elevation (due to the lack of 3D screens affordable atm). Just one example: For the wind, make the player throw grass or set a fire-smoke somewhere in the background or (i know this is political incorrect) let him smoke a cigarette and show the smokes movement (this + some use of my 'powered on' brain is my personal wind indicator irl).

PS: hope my "swinglish" wording somehow hit what it try to write; writing in english for me feels like playing golf with a sledgehammer :( .
Chris
Steam: UrsinaArctica
Courses released: some ....

Oblong

  • *
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2015, 06:31:04 AM »
I guess the reasoning is that since it is hard to judge and HB does not want more HUD elements or shot affecting factors they do not want to do it...

As with most things relating to realism and game mechanics this is left unanswered until there is a huge momentum for it in the forum. Right now we are a quite small group pushing this. Problem is most people do not seem to care and HB are very happy with the somewhat simplistic representation of golf they have built. They should be, but adding on realism would in my mind put the game in a complete league of its own.

That is along the lines of what I was thinking McBogga.

Ursus,  your English is fine.   :)  I don't see how creating an extra step to determine wind would do anything but add time to a round.   Say there were a set of 5-10 different animations that corresponded to different wind strengths.  Once users figured out that grass blowing animation #2 equaled a 6-8mph wind we are back to square one again but have only added that extra step and also given another advantage to the hardcore (who have taken the time to figure this out) over the casual which only further distances the gap of scores.   What may work with wind is that it is rarely constant and having it still be affected by changes in strength AFTER the shot would not only keep players from zeroing in but also be true to real life conditions.

McBogga

  • *
  • GroupMember
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4793
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2015, 09:13:13 AM »
Yeah, the wind does not need to be shown in a different way. Maybe there should be an additional option to only display the speed in 3-4mph intervals and/or locked to 8 or so directions to further complicate outcomes. Since (as far as I know) the wind model does not take terrain and vegetation into account - so giving a range would simulate that there is absolutely no way to know the wind many times IRL due to being blocked by trees or direction being different at the green. The game is actually very playable even with wind speed off as there are ques to how severe it is.

For the physics me and Ursus seem to agree on all accounts. But I think this would only be possible as a "bolt on" mode as it would probably be too complex/deep for beginning and casual players to enjoy. But properly implemented as options to be set by player or locked in tournaments this would add a lot to the games appeal and staying power. Sure - playing with all aids off already makes it harder today, but the swing mechanic (no push/pull) and physics (uphill/downhill) is still lacking realism.

AdamV HB

  • *
  • GroupMember
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 296
  • Physics / Camera Engineer
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2015, 11:17:48 AM »
Uphill/Downhill lies affecting shots is something we are going to get in. It will add another level of complexity to shot set up so we need to inform users that may not be aware of the effect these lies will have. Probably through some commentary as we do for side hill lies.  We don't want our poor old freind the wind being unfairly put on trial. He has enough critics as is when player's rounds are not going well. 

The whole trees effecting the wind intensity is also something we want to do. But we want to do it right.   A simplistic, the ball is x feet above ground so increase wind effect, is not what we are looking for.  We want something that feels real, intuitive, and that adds another interesting level of gameplay.  However, the worry is that implementing something like this will make adjusting your shot to compensate for the wind very inconsistent and may throw the casual player off. And again, the wind effect will get dragged through the mud. He just can't catch a break.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 08:20:49 PM by AdamV HB »

Oblong

  • *
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2015, 05:45:35 PM »
Thanks for the insight Adam.

You guys are walking a fine line by deciding the courses for the most part create the difficulty level as it doesn't leave a lot of room when tweaking things like wind, swing, lies, etc so as to not alienate more casual players.

As the game, or any game for that matter, the casuals do tend to drop off leaving a far higher percentage of core players who may be more receptive to greater challenge.  Handicapping gives you more breathing room also so in hindsight it may start making more sense to some of the critics.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:53:50 PM by Oblong »

McBogga

  • *
  • GroupMember
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4793
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2015, 11:42:20 AM »
Thanks Adam, sounds great.  It would add to the depth of the game.
Can imagine doing the wind right might require some serious processing power...

 

space-cash