[ajl5313]

Tried out a 2 person turn by turn real time multiplayer with my Uncle last night.

It managed to work (with some bugs of showing different shot power to each person), but the lag between him shooting and me seeing it got as high as 10 seconds at times and was usually always 6+ seconds.

Since the whole fun is chatting on Skype and playing together, this obviously killed the fun completely as each of us was reacting to our shots while the other person still hadn't even seen the swing.

(both on very fast internet, and computers - so it seems to be a technical issue to Steam/TGC?)

Will this ever get better?
Or is this another reason a lobby system is so desired (no lag real time multiplayer)?

He and I are trying to "survive" with this game's multiplayer as is, but it's downright no fun to be chatting and have to "hold your breath and not say anything" to not ruin the experience for the other person.

[johneric8]

I play rounds every night with turn based and I can tell you the more that you play it, the more frustrating it gets.   We've been told by HBS in the past that that the bugs would be fixed in updates but for whatever reason this has never come to pass...

Here are some of the things one will typically encounter in a round of turn based with a friend.

1.  Active friends not showing up on the course, even though you know they're there.

2. The order is always off.  If you're playing with a few people more often or not we are all watching different golfers.  (This is a buzz kill for sure)

3. Constantly seeing different outcomes of a shot.   Like, sometimes you will make a putt and your friend will say  "Oh, too bad good try I wish you would of made it"..  Obviously this is a fundamental flaw which ruins the experience..

4.  It seems like every round you have to go to change rivals and remove rival,    then add them back to the game because for some reason if a golfer is on another hole trying to catch up it seems to always stick and not properly update where they truly are on the course.    This is relevant for those times that a friend it trying to catch up with a match in progress.. Sometimes you have to add and remove several times if you want to know where they are on the course because if they do happen to catch up and be on the same hole you will never know it unless they tell you.

5.  The only other thing that really gets me is not being able to add and see the info of more than three people to the game.   There are times where a larger group wants to play turn based but in that situation it really doesn't work very well because you can't add that fourth person to your scorecard.   However,  you can see them take their shot but you have no way of knowing who it is swinging the club nor do you know what they're shooting...    It seems to me if HBS is going to offer the ability to play turn based with 4 or more people it might be logical to have a different scorecard so we can actually see their scores.    Right now the odd man out who doesn't show up on the scorecard is the one using a yellow ball.

I understand that HBS designed the game to only include a certain number on the scorecard so this isn't a bug persay, but an annoyance.

[DDawg]

JohnEric .... I would prefer that the score card remains 4 only ... (purist-in game only) ... I hate fivesomes, this is something golf courses started doing recently to get more play and revenue - but makes for a LONGER Round when you get behind a group of bozos, playing from the blue tees, when they should be at the red/green tees.

and - when online, and most of that time it's with voice - you know what they're shooting ...

However, I wouldn't mind when you intentionally wanted to see the scorecard after the front/back 9 was completed, you could see ALL live players scores ...

Besides ... as in real life, when you get  more than 4 people playing the same course - online - and the same time - it can take almost as long as in real life - just because of some of the issues you mentioned above.   

 

[johneric8]

JohnEric .... I would prefer that the score card remains 4 only ... (purist-in game only) ... I hate fivesomes, this is something golf courses started doing recently to get more play and revenue - but makes for a LONGER Round when you get behind a group of bozos, playing from the blue tees, when they should be at the red/green tees.

and - when online, and most of that time it's with voice - you know what they're shooting ...

However, I wouldn't mind when you intentionally wanted to see the scorecard after the front/back 9 was completed, you could see ALL live players scores ...

Besides ... as in real life, when you get  more than 4 people playing the same course - online - and the same time - it can take almost as long as in real life - just because of some of the issues you mentioned above.   

Oh yeah I feel ya.. I'm not a golf purist, I'm a video game golfer so I can't say I subscribe to the same point of view, but I agree it takes a long time to play turn based rounds with more than three people..    I agree that if they could just add the other player into the scorecard after the hole that would be great!

Either way,  I have a feeling that turn based will be forgotten about and hopefully HBS will figure out a way to get a lobby system in..  At least that is what I'm hoping..

 

[ajl5313]

Any comments from HB?

If a lobby never happens, will this lag thing get fixed at least?

Or are "ghost balls" and "non-synced live multiplayer" the end of the line in this regard?

[wirenut48]

I play TB rounds on a daily basis, and it's not as bad as you make it out to be. I know a lobby system is needed for real time play, but it also comes with having to pay extra for live multiplayer with the consoles.

I play rounds every night with turn based and I can tell you the more that you play it, the more frustrating it gets.   We've been told by HBS in the past that that the bugs would be fixed in updates but for whatever reason this has never come to pass...

Here are some of the things one will typically encounter in a round of turn based with a friend.

1.  Active friends not showing up on the course, even though you know they're there.
Sometimes it takes a while for the servers to update and sync, but you can manually add them with little trouble.

2. The order is always off.  If you're playing with a few people more often or not we are all watching different golfers.  (This is a buzz kill for sure)
This happens when one player doesn't have a handicap establish, which is becoming a much rarer occurrence.

3. Constantly seeing different outcomes of a shot.   Like, sometimes you will make a putt and your friend will say  "Oh, too bad good try I wish you would of made it"..  Obviously this is a fundamental flaw which ruins the experience..
This probably will always be a problem with the current system of retrieving recorded data. As the environmental variables on each console can vary, like a lag in the swing causing different outcomes as being recorded. But this doesn't happen constantly either, maybe 2 or 3 times a round.

4.  It seems like every round you have to go to change rivals and remove rival,    then add them back to the game because for some reason if a golfer is on another hole trying to catch up it seems to always stick and not properly update where they truly are on the course.    This is relevant for those times that a friend it trying to catch up with a match in progress.. Sometimes you have to add and remove several times if you want to know where they are on the course because if they do happen to catch up and be on the same hole you will never know it unless they tell you.
This is definitely a problem which I believe worked much better at one time. Which also makes it harder to get them synced up with you when they reach the same hole you're on switching to TB.

5.  The only other thing that really gets me is not being able to add and see the info of more than three people to the game.   There are times where a larger group wants to play turn based but in that situation it really doesn't work very well because you can't add that fourth person to your scorecard.   However,  you can see them take their shot but you have no way of knowing who it is swinging the club nor do you know what they're shooting...    It seems to me if HBS is going to offer the ability to play turn based with 4 or more people it might be logical to have a different scorecard so we can actually see their scores.    Right now the odd man out who doesn't show up on the scorecard is the one using a yellow ball.
I would like to see this limit raise to 8 player with the lobby system, so you could have 4 teams of Alt shot playing together.

I understand that HBS designed the game to only include a certain number on the scorecard so this isn't a bug persay, but an annoyance.

[ajl5313]

I play TB rounds on a daily basis, and it's not as bad as you make it out to be. I know a lobby system is needed for real time play, but it also comes with having to pay extra for live multiplayer with the consoles.

I play rounds every night with turn based and I can tell you the more that you play it, the more frustrating it gets.   We've been told by HBS in the past that that the bugs would be fixed in updates but for whatever reason this has never come to pass...

Here are some of the things one will typically encounter in a round of turn based with a friend.

1.  Active friends not showing up on the course, even though you know they're there.
Sometimes it takes a while for the servers to update and sync, but you can manually add them with little trouble.

2. The order is always off.  If you're playing with a few people more often or not we are all watching different golfers.  (This is a buzz kill for sure)
This happens when one player doesn't have a handicap establish, which is becoming a much rarer occurrence.

3. Constantly seeing different outcomes of a shot.   Like, sometimes you will make a putt and your friend will say  "Oh, too bad good try I wish you would of made it"..  Obviously this is a fundamental flaw which ruins the experience..
This probably will always be a problem with the current system of retrieving recorded data. As the environmental variables on each console can vary, like a lag in the swing causing different outcomes as being recorded. But this doesn't happen constantly either, maybe 2 or 3 times a round.

4.  It seems like every round you have to go to change rivals and remove rival,    then add them back to the game because for some reason if a golfer is on another hole trying to catch up it seems to always stick and not properly update where they truly are on the course.    This is relevant for those times that a friend it trying to catch up with a match in progress.. Sometimes you have to add and remove several times if you want to know where they are on the course because if they do happen to catch up and be on the same hole you will never know it unless they tell you.
This is definitely a problem which I believe worked much better at one time. Which also makes it harder to get them synced up with you when they reach the same hole you're on switching to TB.

5.  The only other thing that really gets me is not being able to add and see the info of more than three people to the game.   There are times where a larger group wants to play turn based but in that situation it really doesn't work very well because you can't add that fourth person to your scorecard.   However,  you can see them take their shot but you have no way of knowing who it is swinging the club nor do you know what they're shooting...    It seems to me if HBS is going to offer the ability to play turn based with 4 or more people it might be logical to have a different scorecard so we can actually see their scores.    Right now the odd man out who doesn't show up on the scorecard is the one using a yellow ball.
I would like to see this limit raise to 8 player with the lobby system, so you could have 4 teams of Alt shot playing together.

I understand that HBS designed the game to only include a certain number on the scorecard so this isn't a bug persay, but an annoyance.

How about just the fact there is a huge lag between what each player sees and it's never in sync, thus ruining all fun of chatting at the same time?

[ajl5313]

Anyone from HB reading this at all?

Is the lag inherent to the design of TGC and something that basically will always be this way?

[johneric8]

I honestly think HBS is tired of this subject quite honestly..  They have said what they are going to say on the subject...    At this point from everything I've heard from them, there are ZERO fixes going out for multiplayer and all of it's abundant problems....     Also,  a lobby is something they want to add but they have nothing scheduled for it at this time....     

As much as I love the game and the guys that make it I'm going to give them a pass, but I sure hope they know what their doing here..  I'm also hopeful they're taking their cues from the community as a whole in regards to multiplayer because I can tell you first hand I have lots of friends and they all stand in 100% agreement in regards to the state of multi player...   In fact,  many of them have jumped in the sack with perfect golf for this very reason....   I'm going to be patient and loyal, that is my goal ...

[ajl5313]

@johneric8:

I guess I missed it at some point...
So what is the HB stance?

That nobody wants to play live multiplayer?

I've seen HB say that "the lobby isn't worth it" and they have "the data to show it".
Where have they said what exactly people *do* do with golf games?  (if you know)

The thing they could possibly be missing is that the PC golf market hasn't had a great golf title (that was new) in AGES (like over a decade), and I'm not sure using console multiplayer data is very relevant (which is they type of data they likely have from their Tiger work with EA).

PC golf players, and gamers in general, can be quite different than the console demographic.
I know a lot of longtime PC golf players and they *all* only want to play live multiplayer and chat while doing so.

Maybe HB will just cede that whole thing to Perfect Golf -- I just wish that game were a bit closer to "perfect"  (long way to go for my taste)

[wirenut48]

Sounds to me like they are still working on improving the lag and sync/bugs issues in the current system according to the latest Dev blog. Live TB is all I play with this game be it single or tournament play. The lag is usually between 5-6 seconds, higher at times during heavy server loads, but it doesn't take away the fun of the gameplay. You're going to have some lag even with a peer to peer lobby system. If they can improve on the way it is now and add other game modes I think it would be fine the way it is until they have the time and resources to take it a step further. Getting an extra player added to TB is the biggest issue I have at present. Seeing different shot results of putts are not going away with this recorded data system I'm afraid. My theory is that the putt speed varies with lag and tempo of the system playing the shot which differs from the data being recorded and downloaded to other systems.

[johneric8]

Sounds to me like they are still working on improving the lag and sync/bugs issues in the current system according to the latest Dev blog. Live TB is all I play with this game be it single or tournament play. The lag is usually between 5-6 seconds, higher at times during heavy server loads, but it doesn't take away the fun of the gameplay. You're going to have some lag even with a peer to peer lobby system. If they can improve on the way it is now and add other game modes I think it would be fine the way it is until they have the time and resources to take it a step further. Getting an extra player added to TB is the biggest issue I have at present. Seeing different shot results of putts are not going away with this recorded data system I'm afraid. My theory is that the putt speed varies with lag and tempo of the system playing the shot which differs from the data being recorded and downloaded to other systems.

I agree the biggest issue is seeing the incorrect shot.      it happens all to often.     based on the amount of times hbs has claimed to have worked on this issue and fixed it I think its obvious at this point they aren't going to be able or commit the resources to really fix it.         I'm afraid we are stuck with it for the long haul because its quite obvious they are committed to career mode and  spending valuable resources on fixing the wind system so tgctours can thrive ...,

[jcauthen04]

I honestly think HBS is tired of this subject quite honestly..  They have said what they are going to say on the subject...    At this point from everything I've heard from them, there are ZERO fixes going out for multiplayer and all of it's abundant problems....     Also,  a lobby is something they want to add but they have nothing scheduled for it at this time....

Here's a comprehensive statement about it that was part of the 1/29/15 Dev Diary- Process is the Key:

It is important to state that our vision for multiplayer, as a team, was Asynchronous multiplayer and this was to address a fundamental problem that there has been with golf multiplayer over the years – waiting around for your opponent to take a shot. Sitting there as your opponent chops and changes through the menus and the options, looks at the overhead view, the side view, checks the wind, changes clubs, changes loft, lines things up, performs some practice backswings, changes their club again, adds some fade, practices some more and then plays their shot didn’t seem fun. In fact, it was tedious. It was a conscious decision on our part to create a new kind of online experience that was different from the traditional lobby systems. The ghost / live ball system means no waiting around, you can still see how your opponent did / is doing on a hole, have an exciting and challenging competition yet be done in half an hour.

This was backed up by our experience of the development and user participation in real-time, lobby-based multiplayer. We have built a lot of sports games, over 40, including golf games, and, thus, have experience in the enormous chunk of budget that lobby based real-time multiplayer takes, especially on console, and, also, we have been able to see the user participation figures in real-time, lobby-based multiplayer. It is extremely low as a percentage of the overall user base. Usually low single figures. We believed, and still believe, that our method of ghost ball / live ball action would entice many more people to enjoy the multiplayer experience. In fact, we wanted every TGC member who is connected to the internet to be involved in multiplayer action through our system. Seeing this come to fruition is thoroughly gratifying and has brought a lot of very positive feedback from people who wouldn’t ordinarily play multiplayer.

Admittedly, we succumbed slightly when we later added turn-based asynchronous multiplayer to this feature to enable users to emulate the real-time multiplayer but only because it was a very quick and low cost addition. (We have done a little work to optimise it some more recently for those that do use it. The length of time it takes to upload their shot, download it to your game and then view it is much better in the next patch.) However, it definitely wasn’t part of our original vision.

Here's the link to the entire Diary - http://thegolfclubgame.com/2015/01/29/dev-diary-process-makes-perfect/

I don't think they really need to spend any more time explaining it after reading the above; it's just a compendium of everything they've been saying about it over the last six months.  One thing that isn't mentioned there is that I do recall, on more than one occasion, that HBS went the route they took because if they had real time, multiplayer play on the consoles, it would require TGC owners to also either be XBox Live Gold or PSN subscribers, and they didn't want to limit their base to that.   

[HB_LorinB]

Thanks JC..I was just gonna link to that.  Yes - we are working to improve that lag.  But it will never be zero and is, of course, always subject to internet gremlins.

On a side note (and I 100% do not mean this sarcastically), I love that our customer service is so good that when I don't answer within 24 hours you guys are (twice) asking where we are?  I mean that.  To me that is a good sign

[ajl5313]

Thanks JC..I was just gonna link to that.  Yes - we are working to improve that lag.  But it will never be zero and is, of course, always subject to internet gremlins.

On a side note (and I 100% do not mean this sarcastically), I love that our customer service is so good that when I don't answer within 24 hours you guys are (twice) asking where we are?  I mean that.  To me that is a good sign

We love that too!  ;-)

If the lag could be closer to 2-4 seconds all would be fine likely.
But right now I'm congratulating my uncle on his birdie while he's been in the cup for 6+ seconds with his screen staring at my character.  Just zero fun that way unfortunately.