Multiplayer Turn by Turn - Huge lag = Bummer

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dci_jones

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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2015, 09:32:01 PM »
I honestly think HBS is tired of this subject quite honestly..  They have said what they are going to say on the subject...    At this point from everything I've heard from them, there are ZERO fixes going out for multiplayer and all of it's abundant problems....     Also,  a lobby is something they want to add but they have nothing scheduled for it at this time....

Here's a comprehensive statement about it that was part of the 1/29/15 Dev Diary- Process is the Key:

It is important to state that our vision for multiplayer, as a team, was Asynchronous multiplayer and this was to address a fundamental problem that there has been with golf multiplayer over the years – waiting around for your opponent to take a shot. Sitting there as your opponent chops and changes through the menus and the options, looks at the overhead view, the side view, checks the wind, changes clubs, changes loft, lines things up, performs some practice backswings, changes their club again, adds some fade, practices some more and then plays their shot didn’t seem fun. In fact, it was tedious.

I don't think your going to get multiplayer in TGC anytime soon and I strongly disagree with the above statement in the dev diary, I've played PG online since its release and hardly ever have to wait for someone's shot. In fact when I played LInks it was never anywhere as bad as that statement makes it out to be. Its just great fun to be able to play a proper online multiplayer golf game again if that's what floats your boat

mnguy12000

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« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2015, 11:20:36 AM »
ok I have to say that would multi player be fun,  of course, but we are talking about 3 different systems here and they are basically having to add 3 different lobbies for each game.  As it is now, you can ghost balls from other systems, with live multiplayer you are at the ps4, xbox, or pc only stage as there would be no way to cross populate it that way.  What you guys are failing to realize is HB would have to design 3 separate lobbies for each platform. 

I too think it would be nice to play like TW, where it is live and you can see the shots going off and what not.  Heck pangya golf, a free fantasy game has live lobbies too.  But that is pc only. 

It will come I am sure, but other things need to be fixed first.  proper rules, drops, wind and so on.

It will get there, heck this game is a bargain for 35.00!  Plus they are adding things all the time, so give it some time. 
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Acrilix

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« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2015, 01:54:01 PM »
As it is now, you can ghost balls from other systems, with live multiplayer you are at the ps4, xbox, or pc only stage as there would be no way to cross populate it that way.

This statement is wrong. You cannot play against ghosts created on other systems.

i]It is important to state that our vision for multiplayer, as a team, was Asynchronous multiplayer and this was to address a fundamental problem that there has been with golf multiplayer over the years – waiting around for your opponent to take a shot. Sitting there as your opponent chops and changes through the menus and the options, looks at the overhead view, the side view, checks the wind, changes clubs, changes loft, lines things up, performs some practice backswings, changes their club again, adds some fade, practices some more and then plays their shot didn’t seem fun. In fact, it was tedious.

The reason players have had to wait in turn based golf games in the past is because the games would not allow the non playing players to prepare for their shots until it was their turn to play. With good programming there is no reason that this needs to be the case and a turn based system could in fact be created that needs little or none of this waiting time by allowing all players to prepare their shots in the time the active player is preparing theirs. A simple picture in picture system could allow the active player to be viewed, and the non playing players could switch to a full screen if they wanted to by the press of a button.  ;)
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ajl5313

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« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2015, 02:53:17 PM »
As it is now, you can ghost balls from other systems, with live multiplayer you are at the ps4, xbox, or pc only stage as there would be no way to cross populate it that way.

This statement is wrong. You cannot play against ghosts created on other systems.

i]It is important to state that our vision for multiplayer, as a team, was Asynchronous multiplayer and this was to address a fundamental problem that there has been with golf multiplayer over the years – waiting around for your opponent to take a shot. Sitting there as your opponent chops and changes through the menus and the options, looks at the overhead view, the side view, checks the wind, changes clubs, changes loft, lines things up, performs some practice backswings, changes their club again, adds some fade, practices some more and then plays their shot didn’t seem fun. In fact, it was tedious.

The reason players have had to wait in turn based golf games in the past is because the games would not allow the non playing players to prepare for their shots until it was their turn to play. With good programming there is no reason that this needs to be the case and a turn based system could in fact be created that needs little or none of this waiting time by allowing all players to prepare their shots in the time the active player is preparing theirs. A simple picture in picture system could allow the active player to be viewed, and the non playing players could switch to a full screen if they wanted to by the press of a button.  ;)

Great ideas there!  Must be some creative ways to solve the lag issue as you mentioned

jcauthen04

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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2015, 09:18:29 AM »
The reason players have had to wait in turn based golf games in the past is because the games would not allow the non playing players to prepare for their shots until it was their turn to play. With good programming there is no reason that this needs to be the case and a turn based system could in fact be created that needs little or none of this waiting time by allowing all players to prepare their shots in the time the active player is preparing theirs. A simple picture in picture system could allow the active player to be viewed, and the non playing players could switch to a full screen if they wanted to by the press of a button.  ;)

Something like that could indeed be a solution to the dead time the current turn-based system imposes on the players who are not 'up'.  I don't stand behind my playing companions in real life and watch them rummage through their bag, consult their sky caddy, sort through their map and notes, while waiting for them to hit.  I'm usually over near my ball, sizing up what I'm going to do.  Once they'e hit their shot and it's done, I'm up and ready to fire on my shot because I'm already prepared to hit it.

Another twist on your idea might be to just have the game sense when the other player(s) are starting their actual swing and it automatically causes your golfer's "eyes" to pan over to watch the shot from wherever your golf is standing.  It might interrupt what you're doing to some degree, but it wouldn't be anything that would affect your shot if the game was coded to prevent you from swing at your ball until your opponent's shot had come to rest. 

Sixteen years ago, Jack Nicklaus 8: Golden Bear Challenge, had the best method of speeding up multiplayer play, without making the players feel rushed that I've ever seen in computer golf.  They had a play option called "Ready Golf" (not "Ready Play"), in which both players would start on the first tee, hitting their shots at the same time.  As soon as you were done watching your shot play out, you'd be taken to a virtual instant replay of your opponents shot.  While you were watching their's, they'd be watching yours.  You could fast-forward or skip to the finish of the virtual replay at your discretion to pick things up a bit more.  The process would then repeat until both players were on the green, then it would revert to what we now know as turn based.  It wound up reducing the the time required to play a multiplayer round by about 30 to 35%, and I never felt rushed.  Text chat could be entered while your were watching the virtual instant replay. 

I think your idea with the mini-camera that could be expanded on demand, or mine with the camera cutting to the view of the other golfer when they actually swing would be better than Jack 6's Ready Golf though.  With either technique, it would carry the streamlined process out the finish, where even more time is spent studying a putt.  Think about how much more it would speed up multiplayer play if you were sizing up your putt, while your opponent was sizing up theirs!  The opportunities for greater efficiency and a more player centric focus here are plentiful, yet not at the cost of missing the full experience of what your opponent's are actually doing with their shots.

I say this after an excruciatingly long 9 hole team match play game I played in Perfect Golf last night.  The host 'thought' he'd set it for nine holes, which I inquired about before joining the round.  We got four people in the room and launched the round.  Forty five minutes later, we had played 7 holes and I was running out of time before I needed to check in for the night.  The host figured out after the 5th hole that he had actually set it up for 18 holes.  I was enjoying the actual action in the game, but it was frustrating with all the dead time.  I realized then that something will have to be done to speed up play to make this play option work for me for the long haul.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 09:39:13 AM by jcauthen04 »
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ajl5313

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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2015, 02:28:18 PM »
The reason players have had to wait in turn based golf games in the past is because the games would not allow the non playing players to prepare for their shots until it was their turn to play. With good programming there is no reason that this needs to be the case and a turn based system could in fact be created that needs little or none of this waiting time by allowing all players to prepare their shots in the time the active player is preparing theirs. A simple picture in picture system could allow the active player to be viewed, and the non playing players could switch to a full screen if they wanted to by the press of a button.  ;)



Sixteen years ago, Jack Nicklaus 8: Golden Bear Challenge, had the best method of speeding up multiplayer play, without making the players feel rushed that I've ever seen in computer golf.  They had a play option called "Ready Golf" (not "Ready Play"), in which both players would start on the first tee, hitting their shots at the same time.  As soon as you were done watching your shot play out, you'd be taken to a virtual instant replay of your opponents shot.  While you were watching their's, they'd be watching yours.  You could fast-forward or skip to the finish of the virtual replay at your discretion to pick things up a bit more.  The process would then repeat until both players were on the green, then it would revert to what we now know as turn based.  It wound up reducing the the time required to play a multiplayer round by about 30 to 35%, and I never felt rushed.  Text chat could be entered while your were watching the virtual instant replay.

I say this after an excruciatingly long 9 hole team match play game I played in Perfect Golf last night. 

I was enjoying the actual action in the game, but it was frustrating with all the dead time.  I realized then that something will have to be done to speed up play to make this play option work for me for the long haul.

Super super point about GBC method - I'd forgotten about that.
Just more proof that current games can and should look to the past as many great things have been done before.

I think the reason I in particular hadn't been worrying about the time to play is I normally have always only been playing with one other person in a lobby environment.  But with more than just 2 people, we definitely need a different solution.  Ready Golf sounds like the best concept by far - Especially since it's normal turn based "watching everyone" around the green, where the hole should hopefully be getting decided.

HB_LorinB

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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2015, 02:40:47 PM »
I do have a question about Ready Golf though....doesn't this end up with a similar issue that we have with the current TGC Turn Based that takes a few seconds which is...if you are using voice chat, you hear your buddy say "Ohhh...I can't believe I missed that"...and then see it happen later.  Isn't this one of the big issues people have with our TBMP and wouldn't Ready Golf have the same issue? 



johneric8

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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2015, 02:43:07 PM »
I do have a question about Ready Golf though....doesn't this end up with a similar issue that we have with the current TGC Turn Based that takes a few seconds which is...if you are using voice chat, you hear your buddy say "Ohhh...I can't believe I missed that"...and then see it happen later.  Isn't this one of the big issues people have with our TBMP and wouldn't Ready Golf have the same issue?

I agree,  it sounds like more of the same issues...   Not everyone is always going to be on board with how all of this plays out, but at the core just seeing the shots real time is enough...
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jcauthen04

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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2015, 03:53:33 PM »
I do have a question about Ready Golf though....doesn't this end up with a similar issue that we have with the current TGC Turn Based that takes a few seconds which is...if you are using voice chat, you hear your buddy say "Ohhh...I can't believe I missed that"...and then see it happen later.  Isn't this one of the big issues people have with our TBMP and wouldn't Ready Golf have the same issue?

Yes, Ready Golf would have the same issue with the shot result being tipped off prematurely, using voice communication.  Voice communication wasn't available to us in 1999, and the text chat rarely happened quick enough to be a spoiler.  TGC's turn-based play works a lot better in a spoiler sense as long as you're not in voice communication with the other golfer, but OTOH, you don't have an option for text chat.  Without voice chat, Ready Golf would still be a preferable option to what we presently have in TGC's turn-based play, because it would still eliminate some of the dead time watching other players go through shot setup.

The cut-view to the other golfer when the actual swing occurs would be a lot more effective and timely in today's world.
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ajl5313

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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2015, 04:09:45 PM »
I do have a question about Ready Golf though....doesn't this end up with a similar issue that we have with the current TGC Turn Based that takes a few seconds which is...if you are using voice chat, you hear your buddy say "Ohhh...I can't believe I missed that"...and then see it happen later.  Isn't this one of the big issues people have with our TBMP and wouldn't Ready Golf have the same issue?

Yes, Ready Golf would have the same issue with the shot result being tipped off prematurely, using voice communication.  Voice communication wasn't available to us in 1999, and the text chat rarely happened quick enough to be a spoiler.  TGC's turn-based play works a lot better in a spoiler sense as long as you're not in voice communication with the other golfer, but OTOH, you don't have an option for text chat.  Without voice chat, Ready Golf would still be a preferable option to what we presently have in TGC's turn-based play, because it would still eliminate some of the dead time watching other players go through shot setup.

The cut-view to the other golfer when the actual swing occurs would be a lot more effective and timely in today's world.

Agree - Doesn't solve the voice chat component - For my uses of just 2 player voice chat turn by turn, a normal lobby scenario and seeing each shot by both people would be best.

On Ready Play, it would be perfect turn by turn on the key shots that decide things though (the putts), so when it matters, the voice chat would allow the reactions as they happen for everyone.

Ready Play is a superb option that does the best of both yet keeps round times down for larger groups.

HB_LorinB

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« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2015, 04:16:57 PM »
The cut-view to the other golfer when the actual swing occurs would be a lot more effective and timely in today's world.

We are working on something similar to this (ish) right now. 

jcauthen04

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« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2015, 04:24:32 PM »
On Ready Play, it would be perfect turn by turn on the key shots that decide things though (the putts), so when it matters, the voice chat would allow the reactions as they happen for everyone.

Ready Play is a superb option that does the best of both yet keeps round times down for larger groups.

Ready Golf quit using the virtual instant replay once everyone had reached the green, so you still saw putts in real time.  I still think the best solution is the one to which Acrilix alluded several posts back up.  I wouldn't want to have to watch a picture in picture camera to see what my opponent was doing and then go full screen with it when they did hit their shot though; that would still require some degree of monitoring.  I think it would be better if the game took some sort of a cue that the other players swing was in progress and would automatically pan your view to wherever the other golfer is standing, and you'd watch their shot from your perspective.  In this mode, the game would only allow the player who was actually "away" to execute a swing.  The beauty of it is you'd never miss seeing their shot in real time, but the rest of the time you'd have a chance to do shot prep while they're doing shot prep.

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jcauthen04

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« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2015, 04:25:43 PM »
The cut-view to the other golfer when the actual swing occurs would be a lot more effective and timely in today's world.

We are working on something similar to this (ish) right now.

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ajl5313

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« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2015, 04:31:07 PM »
On Ready Play, it would be perfect turn by turn on the key shots that decide things though (the putts), so when it matters, the voice chat would allow the reactions as they happen for everyone.

Ready Play is a superb option that does the best of both yet keeps round times down for larger groups.

Ready Golf quit using the virtual instant replay once everyone had reached the green, so you still saw putts in real time.  I still think the best solution is the one to which Acrilix alluded several posts back up.  I wouldn't want to have to watch a picture in picture camera to see what my opponent was doing and then go full screen with it when they did hit their shot though; that would still require some degree of monitoring.  I think it would be better if the game took some sort of a cue that the other players swing was in progress and would automatically pan your view to wherever the other golfer is standing, and you'd watch their shot from your perspective.  In this mode, the game would only allow the player who was actually "away" to execute a swing.  The beauty of it is you'd never miss seeing their shot in real time, but the rest of the time you'd have a chance to do shot prep while they're doing shot prep.

In my entire post I meant to say ready golf not play sorry

johneric8

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« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2015, 04:42:54 PM »
The cut-view to the other golfer when the actual swing occurs would be a lot more effective and timely in today's world.

We are working on something similar to this (ish) right now.

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